Lokiju -- If there IS a way for the original owner to solve this problem by changing the profile information on Stardock Central so that it's tied to your e-mail address and a password that he mails you, then it would seem to be his responsibility to do so.

First of all, to address the issue, we don't make anything off of used sales, which is why we don't support second hand products. Trading/reselling a game is actually not legal by most licenses, and I don't believe that it is legal either under ours or Strategy First's. Returns are generally only acceptable if the disk is damaged.

If you know this guy, why don't you ask him to edit his account information and replace it with yours?

CariElf, I am not sure it would ever be proven illegal to sell a product on ebay, regardless of what it is. In fact, most things I buy are not broken, unlike software (although GalCiv seems pretty solid at purchase). If a person copies a game, and then sells the original, then that is piracy. But telling a person that they can't sell a legal item they bought is stretching the EULA a bit. I do understand that you don't want to help me because I didn't buy the game from you. My point, again, is that the game itself was purchased, and you have the money from it, so that same game should be able to use Stardock privileges, no matter who the owner is. It was paid for, and 2 people are *not* getting updates, just a single owner, no matter who that owner is. Sigh. I feel like I'm chasing my own tale! LOL

lokiju, I have to agree with twirlip on this. Since there's no copy protection, you don't know that the person that you bought it from has actually stopped playing the game. If he changes his registration over to you, that would be a good sign, at least.

Also, remember that you don't own the game. The person you bought it from licensed it, and unless the license is transferable, he's still the licensed individual. I don't like the way it works either, but that's the way the legal system works (currently).

Lokiju, the thing is, you didnt buy a product on ebay. You bought the CD, that is right, and you bought the CD key, that's right too, but you did not buy the license, since that would require a license transfer that would include StarDock involvement, which you would have had to pay for. You didn't, and so StarDock doesn't owe you support. Just like they don't owe you a new CD if the one you recieved would have been broken.

Technically, the only legal way way would be for the seller (the privious owner) to download the patches, then deliver them to you.

In any case, you have no contract with StarDock. They don't owe you any help, and quite frankly, it would be stupid and contraproductive for them to help you. You bought a PRODUCT cheap from someone else, and now you expect FREE SERVICE for it from a company. World doesn't work like that, I'm afraid :/

Reagarding changing servers, etc. All the standalone download asks that you enter your email account and serial#. Nothing is stopping you from entering the old e-mail address. Just as long as the two match, you'd be fine.

As for the guy you got it from, seems like it's solved, right? He could also d/l the updates for you and send them via disk, etc.

So there are *many* ways to solve this problem than to expect the industry to cover people trading games...

Whoa. Are you saying someone who buys a single user license for the game, can't give or sell that single license to another person if he doesn't want it anymore? I realize it's not going to be a software producers favorite thing because they don't make money on that second transaction, but you know, when I sell my car, the car dealer doesn't make money on that either.

The argument that the game could have been copy is weak, since what game WITH copy protection has not been copied? The pirates are too advanced to stop easily, without harrassing those who have legally purchased the game. There is nothing more frustrating than having to fight the copyprotection to play the games you legally bought. I was so angry with one company whose copy-protection checked to see what CD Rom drive letter it was installed from. Well I had 2 CD-Rom and a removable drive that used to pop up between them from time to time. What a pain in the butt to try to get that stupid game to work... But I'm off topic...

Is Stardock aware that one of your distributors Electronics Boutique, sells used games, including (when available) Galactic Civilizations? At least in Canada they do.

I don't think you can puncih people for crimes that might have been committed.

All that said, the original poster of this thread seems to think it's Stardocks' responsibility to solve his problem and that's wrong. If the registration code was already used, it would be the individual's or the re-seller's responsibility to get that worked out, not Stardocks. Why should they have to spend resources solving someone else's problem, for something they receive zero profit from. That's a money losing proposition.

P.S. I have my receipt!

Do ANY OF YOU READ THE LICENSE AGREEMENTS's with your software...you know the one's that won't let you install till you scroll to the end of the page...start reading the fine print. He who'd buys has the license..PERIOD. They are the one's supported...PERIOD. End of discussion.

Paquama...they can sell used games...you just get no support from the publishers.

The game can be played without the CD in the drive. Who's to say the guy sold/traded you his CD but is STILL PLAYING the game. He can still get downloads if he copied the cd key before you got it. Its not Stardocks responsibility to determine if he really took it off his computer before you got it. Bottom line...buy used software and LIVE with the consequences. You want 100% support, buy original software. Its a cruel world out there bucko, learn to deal with the choices you make.
Cheers.

I'd really like to hear Brad's opinion about what one buys when one buys software ... OK, I'm almost done reading his articles, and I just want more

But still, in that regard, software seems to be a lot different from books or music.

"Whoa. Are you saying someone who buys a single user license for the game, can't give or sell that single license to another person if he doesn't want it anymore? I realize it's not going to be a software producers favorite thing because they don't make money on that second transaction, but you know, when I sell my car, the car dealer doesn't make money on that either."

In response to Paguma's car example, remeber that you are buying two things when you buy Gal Civ brand new. 1) The game (which works fine alone). 2) The extra service Stardock is providing, like bonus packs and the Metaverse. The game itself is perfectly legal to sell, but the service part doesn't "belong" to the origional buyer, and is not his to sell.

It would be like a person buying a new car from a dealorship and getting some free extra stuff, like road side assistance and free gasoline for a certain amount of time.

That person could turn around a sell the car to another person whenever they wanted. But, the dealorship has no obligation to provide the origional free stuff to the new owner, because they are not making any money from the second sale and someone else has already benefited from it. If the person went to the dealorship demanding "his" free gas, he would probably be laughed at and shown the door.

:notsure: Like I said, take the actual user out of the equation, and for once stop thinking that EVERYONE copies and pirates games (since most people at GoneGold.com are VERY against it). The game was purchased (Stardock got their money from the game), and therefore the game deserves the quick updates at Stardock. And please, please, shut up with all the "Read the license or EULA" crap. I've seen less paperwork over a new house or car. EULA's have been proven, from various articles, to be hogwash when used in legal debates. There are certain rights a person CAN'T sign away on, even if hidden in a 25 paragraph contract. In any case, I got the info from the person I received the game from, and it's now in my name. Sorry to have caused so much trouble. Sheesh.

How does one edit their account information?

That is really all the info this guy needs. Go ask the guy who traded it to do so, giving him the info.. you are set. There is no way you should be ABLE to register yourself why he stays registered. There is absolutely no way for Stardock to know if you now are both getting updates and support for 1 sold unit.

So find out how to edit account info.. send the info to your trading bud.. all set. That is fair, and makes sense, end O story.

fleabitfox

This is a great game, and I will be buying the expansion. But, it would be nice for a company to help out in these situations, since it could make or break future purchases. I don't like the fact that companies go to such extreme measures to stop hackers. It only hurts honest customers, and the traders like me as well. Pirates are always one step ahead, which is why they are hired to be anti-pirates, lol. I buy 50% of my games, which is still $100's a month. An honest trade here or there shouldn't be treated like crap. The trade has opened my eyes to the expansion, so Stardock would get my money for that where I wouldn't have even gotten the game if not through a trade, and therefore no future money. They didn't lose money on me as the game WAS purchased. I just happen to have it 3 weeks later.

Fleabit (same as at GoneGold?), I did already switch the account info. Thanks. I just had to get his email, full name, and password.

Well, I hope it all works out for you. I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way, I was just trying to show the difference between the game and the license. Part of the free services they are providing is the expansion, it will be completely free to registered owners. So if all this gets worked out, you won't have to pay a thing for atleast a year when the membership runs out.

The registration process to download all the free stuff is Stardocks way of preventing piracy, instead of using copy-protection (not saying that's what you were doing). So I can understand if they are alittle strict about it.

CariElf, I hate to tell you this, but most license agreements I have ever seen have provisions that allow for transfers of licenses to another party. This is predicated on the idea that the original owner 1) removes all copies of the game from his PC. 2) hands over all the documentation that came with the CD as well as the CD and 3) that the new holder agrees to all conditions of the license agreement

Thankfully enough, you guys can make the license agreement as draconians as you feel like it, but consumer rights in many cases will supercede the license agreement. For example, I've seen license agreements which claim that you're not allowed to publish reviews of that software. This is an illegal provision and as such non-enforceable. Selling copyrighted works second hand has been going on for quite some time. If you think your company is so wronged by this practice, try suing "Second Time Around" in Dayton Ohio. Try suing Electronics Boutique while you're at it and make work your way over to Ebay.

Sorry if I sound a bit snappy, but I'm sick and tired of some copyright holders and the people who work for them thinking they're the almighty gods gift to entertainment and telling us what we can or can't do with a CD we purchased.

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#22 by Citizen Arcanum3000 - 5/9/2003 5:05:10 PM

Coffeedragon: That's what the Stardock "Edit account information" menu item is for.
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can the first game owner use that to change his account info to say it is from the second guy's email?

"This is a great game, and I will be buying the expansion. But, it would be nice for a company to help out in these situations, since it could make or break future purchases. I don't like the fact that companies go to such extreme measures to stop hackers."

Well, I *am* glad you got the game working! LOL

I think one thing you and everyone has to remember is that this is a first in anti-piracy protection. It is the first scheme that does not punish the actual buyer of the game because of pirates. I should know.. I remember the very first 'wheels' and dark maps with a bajallion stars (what color is the star in quarant blahxblah?), and DARK purple manuals with DARK black print you could barely read (Wizardy III or IV I believe), and so on. SecureROM is a big pile O.. well, you know.

So here is a game that you can play without the CD in. You can download the entire game! How awesome. But in doing so, they have to make some provisions. It is up to the players to make certain they are registered correctly. In this case, I would guess it would always be up to the person initiating the trade to make certain that the account info is changed. I think it *should* be changed.. lest Stardock lose money on an excellent product.. they don't deserve to be ripped off. If you BOTH have the game installed using the same email addy, etc.. then your friend can simply keep playing the game as well, and getting free updates. Not cricket as they say.

I think that the entire Stardock team has been super exemplarary in supporting their product so far. I would hate to think this sort of anti piracy would fail because of lack of support, or people complaining. And actually, you were very polite.. I just hope that others are as polite, and that people are understanding of this NEW system they are trying out. I think it is a step in the RIGHT direction as far as anti piracy goes, and supporting the customer.

It is sort of ironic.. all these HUGE game companies out there (I won't mention names), and it takes a smaller, innovative company whose focus isn't even computer games, to pave the way for a better scheme to support the customer, instead of simply making it slightly more difficult for the pirate.

fleabitfox

I re-read the stardock agreement about transfering licenses...section 3. It apparently says you're not allowed to transfer the software or game manual. Now let me see the idiocy of this....I uninstall the game, and supposedly you guys can come and throw me in jail if I give the game to my brother? Good luck....

All sarcasm aside, the draconian item in your license agreement is the exception rather than the norm, as most licenses for games I"ve seen allow for a transfer provided that the original owner uninstalls the game, and hands the CD and manual to the recipient, and the recipient agrees to all conditions of the license agreement. In fact, Inforgrames/Atari, Microsoft, and Blizzard allow these kind of things, not to mention Blizzard does the CD-Key locking bit too...so don't tell me that most companies don't allow this

(Sorry, but I'm very touchy about copyright issues)

SeanB

Well, I do appreciate what the company has done for the community, and this is the best anti-piracy/pro non-pirate system I have seen so far...except for the whole reseller thing. Although it *was* easy enough to get the person's info and change the account to my own (Ebay sellers might not be so nice though). Because of this, he can not update from Stardock with a copied version since I now have the account and new password (Although I doubt he copied the game just from previous experience with him). Everyone should visit GoneGold.com, one of the best gaming sites/forums around (as far as not being game specific like this here great forum!). I have done 30 trades in 2-3 years, and it's always a pleasant experience. Um, that is all. I didn't mean to start an anti-Stardock debate here, as they are a great company. I was upset that they couldn't help me out since I went to so much trouble to show that this was a fair game switch, and perfectly legal (no matter what the EULA says).

Lokiju's comment.... about #40 "This is a great game, and I will be buying the expansion."

If you now have the account info and it's in your name, then you should be entitled to updates for a year from when the game was first bought. So you will probably get the expansion when it comes out already included. Just download it, when it comes out. Or at least, that's the way it is for the rest of us. Now you have the account, it might (and should) allow you access to that too. You d/led SDC yet?

~SDC~

Starvald...what is SDC? Star Dock...Central?

Let me make sure I understand this correctly - you're mad not because you can't get updates -- you can. But because you can't get the instant updates via SDCentral?

Don't you find that to be a bit unreasonable? The stand alone updates are essentially what every other game out there provides. SDCentral is above and beyond what other games provide.

There's already been THREE stand alone updates since the release only 6 weeks ago.