Slow Start

Well, Im pretty new to the game and I seem to be having one major problem:  I always seem to be the slowest to get my empire off the ground.  by the time I've got my third new colony, my scouts are already coming across enemy empires 4 or 5 planets big and running from large fleets (well, largfe as far as early game goes).  I've tried several different approaches with all the races, but I can never seem to find a way to balance building my fleet, researching, develpoing and fortifying new planets, etc etc.  It is not so much a problem against medium difficulty AI but on anything harder or in mp I get my ass handed to me. 

Any tips?
43,192 views 17 replies
Reply #1 Top
What race do you generally play? There are somewhat standardized opening moves, but even these are subject to whatever info your scouts are giving back to you.
Reply #2 Top
Make sure you're doing civic research on all your planets.
Reply #3 Top
I can't stand when people say in RTS games particulary "first you do this then this then this..." you should develope your own style. Some tips though would be to make sure you colonie the asteroids first as they are cheap to upgrade, barely defended, give you minor resource bonuses, and eventually give a pretty nice bonus to taxes once you start building trade facilities. Make sure you research the full civic upgrade on your home planet as well as all newly colonized ones above all else. Another tip would be to wait before you do upgrades such as exploration since it's like a 10% chance of finding something and usually is expensive. I would also recommend colonizing ice planets before volcanic as they can hold more population and crystal is generally a more important resource early on in the game. You should only make a size of a fleet you need to attack other worlds defended by pirates not other players early on so you can have more resources for your planets. Hope I helped but remember develop your own style.
Reply #4 Top
developing your own style only goes so far in MP, as anyone past noob will tell you. Sure, going out of the box will help you find that new kick-ass strategy, but teching to trade ports on a small map as Vasari isn't the new "ultra strat" you're looking for. Some opening moves that are always the same for me are to build a Cap ship factory right away and then a military research structure for fast vas assailants. Then I tech up the planet pop upgrade. Those three things let me accomplish a fast military start for taking planets or putting pressure on an opponent, getting my cap right away for taking planets, and upgrading structure for more credits. Explain to me how that cookie cutter start is a bad idea.
Reply #5 Top
I agree to a point about a game shouldn't be "do this, then do this", but I don't agree that this applies to sins. I would say only the first five minutes of a game are identical each and every single time I play, but that's because it's the most logical thing to do.

1. Buy 200 Crystal
2. Sell 200 Metal
3. Build Cap ship Factory
4. Build Crystal mine
5. Build 3 Scouts
6. Build Metal mines
7. Send Capital ship (Which is 99% of the time a colonizer) to colonize the adjacent asteroid on it's own
8. Upgrade the Asteroid and buy the mines for it
9. Do whatever the hell you please.

Steps 1 through 8 are the general start up that anyone who wins online will do. They can be tweaked, like some people say buy and sell different amounts, but you get the idea.
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Reply #6 Top
RagingAmish's MP path has several variants that can be quite successful when against Hard AI exclusively. Here's the one that I use, and I stress that it's not the *only* way to do it. Note that Hard AI is a lot more forgiving than MP against a veteran.

1) Immediately send one of your starting construction craft to build a crystal mine.
2) Buy 100 crystal on the black market.
3) Build a capital ship factory. Queue up a capital ship colonizer, and give it Colonization when it is built.
4) Upgrade your planet's population and build the metal mine that's closest to your crystal mine, and then the other one when you have the money after step 5.
5) Build at least three scouts, more if you are on a large map, and send them one each to the phase lanes radiating from your planet. Turn their autoexplore on.
6) As Amish says, conquer the asteroid with your capship and and upgrade its population as soon as you can.

-- Retro
Reply #7 Top
Throwing my 2 cents in the ring here. To preface, I don't play online, so I wouldn't bank on this kind of econ against a human player. It's also highly dependent on the size of the map and whether it is randomly generated. Some will have choke points, some will have multiple stars, some will have neutral belts all over the place. These all affect how you should approach the early game, just as much as the race and number of your enemies.

SoaSE early game is a lot like a 4x design. It's all about getting out there and claiming your ground. I think a lot of people try to play it like a more traditional RTS, by only investing in what they can reasonably defend. This turns out to be a self defeating strategy in SoaSE. Consider the difficulty in claiming a neutral planet vs attacking a colonized one. Even 1500 hp takes a long time for 1 capital ship to kill, and planet bombing frigates are a huge credit sink. Even if you lose a planet, it bought you lots of time to work with the rest. Thus, you want to rush out there and colonize as fast as you can afford to research civilian infrastructure. Don't ignore neutral extractors either, these are key to early game econ.

I'll play a game tonight or tomorrow and PM you the replay, assuming I figure out how to record them. Attached will be some manner of reasoning for strategic choices early on. Hopefully it can be of some use to you. I don't want to put down a build order because it's not the right way to learn the game. You don't want to be executing a list of actions without knowing the advantages/disadvantages this list of actions is implicating for you. That is not to say build orders are useless, they're not, but they aren't universally applicable and not very effective without an understanding of their purpose.
Reply #8 Top
When you're just starting out, try to simplify your builds by clarifying your goals. At the start of the game, you need to get your economy up and running and you need to scout in order to find planets to expand into. I'm going to focus on helping you with that by doing a rough walkthrough. As always, take what you like and use it and reject the rest. ;-)


So, as everyone else so far has said:

You need to build your Crystal and your Cap Factory first.

Que up the two Metals.

Que three Scouts. Manually scout with them (auto scouting means you're not paying ATTENTION to what they're finding -- like an enemy's Homeworld or a nearby asteroid, choke point, etc)

Now you get to make a decision: do you want a Colony Capital Ship or one of the offensive Capitals? It's easier to expand with a Colony Capital but they tend to be weaker fighters. A Battleship (or if you're TEC, the Dreadnaught) are better suited to slugging it out (and the Dread is REALLY good at killing worlds), but will slightly slow down your expansion since you will need to build a colony frigate in order to expand.

Colony frigates have less "mana" (I'm blanking on the in game name) and since every time a ship jumps it drains a portion of it's mana pool, you often end up waiting for the colony frigate to colonize a world, since it has a small mana pool. That's no big deal - maybe 30 seconds of waiting. Make sure to move the colony ship manually over the world while it recharges to reduce the downtime if you choice this route.

To sum this up: The choice is between an almost immediate short term gain with reduced returns over time (a quick colonization but a weaker warship) vs a potential long term gain (a more powerful Capital ship leveled up slightly earlier). Both choices have advantages and disadvantages. I usually choose the warship. For a starting player, I'd go with the Colony Cap with it's first upgrade being it's colonizer ability.

Make sure your first expansion is into the nearby asteroid (there is always a roid near your Homeworld). This is because the roid is easy to cleanse of guardian ships and is cheap to turn profitable. You don't need escorts to cleanse it -- any Cap can do the job by itself.

Once you have your new colony, at the first opportunity you MUST upgrade it's planetary infrastructure. A freshly started colony has a negative income -- and tolerating this negative income is THE KEY NOOB MISTAKE THAT SLOWS THEM DOWN! Failure to quickly tech a colony into profitability is often the reason a player is beaten over the long term, too, since your "credit gap" will widen over time vs players who do tech their infra. Even worse, if you fail to tech the infra as you colonize it is quite possible to go into negative income for your empire after a few too many new colonies!

For a roid, the first and cheapest planetary infrastructure upgrade immediately turns them profitable -- thus these are the easiest worlds to expand into at the start. So go for roids first (and second)!

The second thing you must do is build the new colony's metal and crystal mines. Crystal should be done first.

Almost all players will hit two worlds right around the same time, unless someone messed up.

Note: you don't need warships frigates -- yet. Let the cap clear the first and probably the second roid alone.

Sell your capital ship factory. Yep, sounds nuts, but you're not going to build a new Capital Ship any time soon and the money and resources this recovers help finance your labs and free up logistical slots for those labs. Do it. You'll like it.

You'll want to upgrade the planetary infrastructure on your Homeworld soon. That's right, the Homeworld has one very expensive upgrade left, and it's important to get this done as soon as possible. Some players even do this RIGHT AWAY at the start of the game (they buy 200 crystal as soon as the game starts and add an "upgrade homeworld" step into the development cycle, usually right after they buy their capital ship factory -- but this can instantly break the bank. Try it out when you're better at the game -- the small amount of extra income it provides at start won't be noticeable -- but over TIME it will make a big difference. So get it done as soon as you can. I usually do the upgrade after I have one expansion and have teched its own planetary infra.

Keep scouting. Find the enemy and figure out what he's doing -- expanding, teching, spamming ships -- and decide what you want to do. Usually you want to tech up militarily.

Build military labs but don't build more labs than you need, and try to ignore the temptation to tech every tech you can afford up. Focus. (note: as the game progresses, try to tech techs that are synergistic (ie, % increases to hull points or shield points or armor, which benefit all ships, as opposed to damage bumps, which tend to be targeted to particular ships).

Tech and build LRMs. Ignore people who call this spamming. They are often the early-midgame workhorse unit.

Depending on the map size, three colonies (ie, your HW and two roids) and the tech to build your race's LRMs is a solid start and a good time to "stage" your Capital ship and any built escorts for an attack on an enemy expansion OR an attack on a Terran or Desert NPC world.

Getting an early Terran or Desert will give you a significant advantage over the long term, both in income and in logistical slots. I usually grab a Desert. To do this, you need a fleet that is maxed or near maxed to your STARTING FLEET CAPACITY. Skilled players might not need as many ships to pull off this attack, but it will be easier with a dozen LRMs. Plus, you're going to want those ships anyway.

or

If you're attacking him, well, the balloon has risen.

Remember, on a new world, quickly upgrade it into profitability.

Meantime, as that fleet cleanses the Desert or Terran or fights the enemy, continue manually scouting your enemy's systems. You're looking for 1) where his capital ship is, 2) any new types of ships he's producing (ie, carriers, lrms, flak, etc), 3) what sort of labs he's building, if any. Knowing where his capital ship is tells you if you are in any danger. ID-ing his fleet composition tells you what he's got to fight you with. Noting his labs tell you what he MIGHT have to fight you with and/or if he's teching something spiffy. Plus, if you're constantly jumping in and out of his worlds he'll get nervous. ;-)

Finally, while you're wrapping up your Desert or Terran expansion or probing in the enemy's expansion tech up your fleet capacity one level and build more ships. A key limitation for new players is hitting fleet capacity and forgetting to timely tech their fleet capacity -- while another error is a too early tech on fleet capacity. Tech fleet up puts a % drain on your credit, metal and crystal income, so only upgrade when you hit or near your fleet capacity and need more ships. Early in the game the first tech is a no brainer.

At this point, the game becomes more a matter of timing your choices than anything else. You usually won't need to expand after four worlds on a medium map -- the fight will be on and you'll need to focus on teching your military to better ships and also teching to help expand your economy with the worlds you already on rather than taking new worlds to expand your economy (ie, Trade Port or Terran Population upgrade, etc).

Hope this helps. I had fun thinking it all out.
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Reply #9 Top
When you're just starting out, try to simplify your builds by clarifying your goals. At the start of the game,
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Real Good Stuff, right there... Deserves a sticky.

I would add, though, that usually I find more Ice/Volcanic planets then desert/terran ones. I will usually build my two civic labs right after I get my cap ship factory ( and cap ship ), 1-metal/2-crystals, and infrastructure upgrade(s). With the scouts, you can decide which colonizing tech to go for first based on which is closest. I do this while the asteroid is under development. Ice/Volcanic are usually easier to take as well. I'd rather grab three Ice planets right next door then 1 terran four hops away.

It can't be stressed enough : Expansion is crucial, especially in the first five to ten minutes. If you're five minutes behind your opponent(s), they have a huge advantage. The planets they control have more extractors working ( IE resources comning in ), better infrastructure ( Credits ), and more room for labs ( research ). Maximizing your first five minutes is HUGE. Hence the build lists mentioned above. But a fat lot of good it will do you trying to grab a heavily defended terran planet five hops away, when you could have snarfed three asteroids and an Ice planet with the same effort in less time. Conversely, if you have a chance to grab a weakly defended terran right next door it might be worth giving up the 'asteroid first' approach.

Your mileage may vary, etc etc...
Reply #10 Top
The best early game strategy my child is to never play at all. These are your words of wisdom for today. \../<(^...^)>\../
Reply #11 Top
Also - if you are a noob - don't quit just because you are being attacked as:
1) you will not learn - hence you will not get quicker
2) you will get a reputation and no one will want to play with you
3) just because you are getting attacked is not the end of the game - if an ally attacks them on the other side of their empire, they may have to pull back or risk their homeworld being seriously worked.
I was being badly worked by an RA fleet in a big 4v4 game, but we took out two allies and that left 4 on 2 - his fleet couldn't be everywhere at once, even with phase stabalisers. We won by doing hit and run tactics with small fleets and engaging with a larger one to tie his fleet up for a period of time.
Oh yes, and it was FUN too, even if it was a little hairy for a while!!!

Finally - each game is different so what would be a fast start in one game is relatively slow in another...
Reply #12 Top
all great advice. thanks a lot! For the record, I wasnt looking for a fail-proof early game strategy; I know there is no such thing. it just seemed that I spent much of the starting game sitting around, waiting for the resources to seep in so I could buy the next ship, tech, planetary upgrade, or whatever. I will definitely try out some of your suggestions and let you know how it works.
Reply #13 Top
Sounds like u guys have got this down to a science. Personaly i build a cap ship and near max out reg frigits to clear out planets one at a time. The only thing i research is ice and valcanic callonization. at least untill i build my sec cap ship wich i do realy fast so i dont need very many reg ships because by this time my battle ship is at level 4. But dont do this onlione tho cus people spam and a cap ship and a hand full of frigs can only do so much. But it does work against hard and unfair AI's.
Reply #14 Top
And there is the difference between SP and MP - you can often take a little more time on SP as you often won't be attacked as quickly by the AI as you would by some of the better players online...
Reply #15 Top
Thanks for the kind words General H.

The only reason I would suggest a military start over a civ start is that it's easier to recover from mistakes if you already have the ability to build a variety of ships (two mil labs for TEC for example let you build light frigates, flak, lrms and siege -- that's a lot of flexiblity). Plus, a civ start invites an enemy to rush you, since they know you're into expansion mode. Speaking broadly, I usually build two military labs, then one civ lab and upgrade my terran population cap to max -- that upgrade really pays dividends. THEN I get the second civ lab and go ice or volcanic... if I need too. You might be surprised at how easy things can be if you simply ignore the civ tree at first and target Deserts and Terrans. A Capital ship with even three or four light frigates can clear more D and T world's fairly quickly.

Funny thing is, as much as this sounds like a "build order" it's more like... like general targets you want to shoot for. On bigger maps, for example, a civ push is a much better choice since you have time and space before you're first fight. Most of my thoughts are targeted for a medium map, 2v2 or 3v3.
Reply #16 Top
This is kind of a tangent here, and only barely on topic, but I did a little estimation in regard to the capital planet level 4 civ upgrade. Depending on whether you estimate metal/crystal costs as bought or sold, the level 4 upgrade costs either 2775 or 1762 total credits. This is done assuming the 225 metal/crystal were bought at 450 or sold at 225 per 100met/crys, respectively.

The population upgrade is not instant, your population raises by .1 per second (1 every 10 seconds) until it reaches the cap. This itself takes 15 minutes. At 100% allegiance, (more if culture buildings are built, but since this is the beginning there won't be) going from 190 to 280 pop takes your tax income from 8.8 to 11.0, which is ~2.2 per second for 90 population. This might be rounded internally.

There's more math here, and a lot of assumptions/estimations, but what I'm getting at is the time it takes for this upgrade to actually turn a profit. If metal/crystal is bought at 450 per 100, the upgrade takes approximately 1,661 seconds or 27.7 minutes to pay for itself with new income. If the resources are valued by their selling price, it takes approximately 1,216 seconds or 20.3 minutes to pay for itself. That means, before these estimated time frames, you are working at a disadvantage in available resources for other purposes.

Whether that admittedly obscure disadvantage is worth taking on for a bonus income beyond the half hour mark is up for interpretation. I think, personally, I'll opt to wait on upgrading my home planet until metal/crystal income is more established, since they arguably begin to profit much faster for their investment. (colony frigs for neutrals, new planet civ research, extractors)

edit-- This was with income set to 'slow.' Everything will be faster on normal/fast, but with the same relationships in regard to the above alternative expenditures.

edit 2-- I got curious and tried running the same numbers for a newly colonized Terran planet with 3 extractor slots and 80% allegiance. The problem I ran into, though, was that the reference 'value' of minerals in this case is hugely significant in the results. This is because new planets with extractors have a profit that is functional to the price of the materials, whereas the civ upgrade only has a single one-time input from those prices. As a compromise, I changed the value of metal/crystal to the average of the two previous values, in the middle between selling and buying. Since credits are generally more of a bottleneck, and the numbers don't account for the time it takes to kill NPCs protecting the planet, you may want to take this analysis with a grain of salt. Pure black market selling prices will have a less significant discrepancy, but new colonies are still better.

At 337.5 per 100, (3.375 each) Civ Inf 4 will take ~1380 seconds (23 minutes) to break even. In that same amount of time, a new Terran planet will be at a ~2443 credit profit, which is an improvement of nearly 70% beyond its investment cost. Also, ignoring the materials research upgrades, it will be producing a total of ~5.26 credits per second vs 2.2 for Civ Inf 4, which is about 2.4x more, and that's at 80% allegiance. At this point I can say pretty conclusively that efforts to expand faster are more profitable than using your initial funds to upgrade your home planet. Asteroids are comparable- with 2 extractor slots and the same assumptions, a colonized asteroid will have profited by ~164% its investment at 23 minutes, though it will only be producing at a rate of ~2.56 credits per second. At that time, with these theorized material values, civ 4 and a colonized asteroid have roughly the same worth.
Reply #17 Top
Orion:

First off, teching the HW's infra DOESN'T slow down your first or second expansion. It may marginally slow down your extractor production at expansions. (ie, you won't be cuing up extractors, you'll be manually building them as you collect your 250cr).

Second, 23 minutes is about 1/5th to 1/8th of a game. The investment profits significantly over the course of the game and so the sooner you get it, the better. Put it another way, what else will you plausibly spend those resources on in the first 20 minutes? I think you are limited in your real world ability to spend those resources, other than spam light frigates. I can only see this being useful if you are locked in behind a heavily defended Terran or Desert world (which can happen on a random map). In that case you need light frigates asap to assist in the clearing of the cork world. Again, you don't want to upgrade the homeworld's infra at the EXPENSE of something else; you want to fit it in. Some players rush it, others wait on it, but you cannot afford to ignore it. Paired with terran % population civ tech increases, this upgrade sets a cornerstone of your economy.