TotA - Things I miss

The "limited tech trading" option sounds good in theory, but the problem with it is it will likely significantly disadvantage the more unique races out there. The Thalans for example have such a highly exclusive tech tree that it will largely leave them out in the cold. How do you balance this option?

Concerning the tech trading, I think that it's not that bad (although I haven't played the game that much given the tech-snoozebutton-bug). The AI seems to favour native improvements to foreign ones meaning only the passive bonuses really get traded. Either that or the game ended before they had a chance, I don't know.

There is one problem concerning governors and that is determining what 'best' means. Is it the cheapest to maintain, the highest output, the fastest build time, a ratio between output and maintenance?
All of these aspect will weigh in at one point or another. How would an AI determine what's best for the player?

Just in the same way the governor does this now. If you research a new building further up the tech tree, he will automatically replace all buildings of that kind.
So depending on th focus he just chooses the building with the highest output for this area. If this is not fine for you, you can still override his decision as it works now.

That is due to the fact that X tech is a prereq for Y tech, thus it knows that building should upgrade to this one. When you get techs from outside of your tree, those 'upgrade links' don't exist.

Even w/in a tech tree though you have some issues of auto-upgrading. Look into the Dregin/Korath tech trees. Their initial research buildings aren't linked to their best research buildings.

I'd like to see a choice to turn trading race exclusive techs off. Anything that isn't common can't be traded, meaning I can't build other races buildings or use their bonii on top of my own. Maintain the differences of the races during the game... That's why they went through all the trouble to make them different, isn't it?

And please let me demolish race specific structures like charging stalks... they look pretty, but short of an amusement park my population really can't use them. I hate having 5 spots taken up by things my race can't use. Especially when I still get the benefit from them. It's nice to get the perk, but it just makes no sense. Unless I meet the Borg. I could let them use them to recharge. Maybe they won't assimilate me because I was so nice to them. Not.

T

IMO there should be an option to turn off unique tech trading. As it is I'm forced to have tech trading off every game because I want to keep the races unique and not end up with them all being homogenous.

Can't they be manually demolished? I know they survive invasion, but during the late beta, they implemented the ability to demolish those indestructible buildings. Central Mine and the Harvesters I know survive invasions but can be destroyed.

It's been awhile since I played thanks to EU3 In Nomine, but if they have indeed fixed it that is excellent news!!! Thanks for the heads up...

T

I'm the strongest advocate of this idea, because despite your nay-saying, you need to look at the big picture.

The absolute rule for tech trading should be that if you can not research a technology yourself, meaning it is nowhere on your tech tree, than you will be unable to trade for it. Plain and simple.

You're vastly overstating the disadvantages to this. The biggest disadvantage is that game exploiters (ie: metaverse players) will be severely hampered by their inability to abuse the crap out of tech trading as much.

Secondly, nearly every race will still be able to trade most, or nearly every technology they have. Believe it or not, the Drath and the Terrans share most technology. So do the Altarians and the Arceans. Governments. Weapons. Defenses. Colonization, ship hulls, etc makes up a huge part of the tech trees, and is mostly shared by every race. In addition, this will set up natural race relations. The Drengin and the Korath share nearly every technology, so it's natural that to advance the Drengin tree prematurely, you'll need to do some trading with those whose technology you're familiar with.

Third, this, obviously, eliminates all unique tech trading. The reason a technology is UNIQUE is because the entire theory behind it, as well as the technologies its built off of, is completely incomprehensible, unable to be replicated whatsoever by another race. An Altarian technology, for example, could use their innate magic to work. Therefore the Terrans would be utterly unable to use it, even if they had every single blueprint for it. Arcean Weather Control could be the end result of a series of technologies that has taken 1,000 years to perfect, and therefore there's absolutely no way they'll give it up.

Finally, this avoids the most obvious exploits - ie: Torians with Discovery Spheres, or Arceans with HyperWarp. Or, again, Thalans getting a 'normal' start, forgoing their INTENDED technologies with 'mundane' techs. Thalans are easily playable without tech trading, to do so is a crutch for a crappy player. If you absolutely need technologies so bad, just Ctrl-R cheat for them - after all, that's what 90% of NORMAL tech trading is - exploiting the AI, abusing the game, and ultimately cheating for a significant, undeserved edge, an edge that severely needs to be trimmed.

Translation: Metaverse continuity is meaningless and all Metaverse players are soul-less abusers of game mechanics. Already, the changes to the economy and the nerf of the MCC mean that it is nearly impossible to achieve Twilight scores comparable to the best DA (or even DL).

If that is your opinion, you are entitled to it. Personally I do not agree that whenever the best players find an effective technique it must be nerfed with extreme prejudice. What is wrong with having it simply as a game option? You would be free to play it your way, Metaverse players theirs.

Well, the only way you're going to get it in is as an option, which metaverse players who play for score will turn off to get these bonuses anyways, so I have to shoot that argument down.



Well, you act like the only player who's trading techs is the player. I see the AIs doing the same thing - the Yor AI trading for economics techs, Torian AIs with discovery spheres - And in fact the AI comes out of these deals with a much better edge, tech for tech, than players do - with the possible exception of Super Diplomats.

You also seem to have this very high-and-mighty "This is how the game is meant to be played!" mentality, which is a little grating. This game is a singleplayer game - even when you add in the MV, it's just a scoring thing - and last time I checked, it was a video game, not a nuclear reactor. The only "correct" way to play the game is whatever way makes it fun for you. Not for anyone else's opinion, or enjoyment, but for yours. If that means trading techs, that's fantastic for you.

I think you're well within your rights to ask for a "No trading unique techs" checkbox, don't get me wrong, but phrasing it that way is more than a little insulting is where you really need to calm down. Honestly, if it's really ruining your enjoyment so much, crack open the Tech Tree editor and set the custom techs to "does not trade" and problem solved.

It isn't?

Why would they be any different from any other kind of online competition?

Korath. Spore Ships. Tiny Map. Suicidal. 'nuff said.

That rush has been known for at least a year (I posted an early version myself in the Galactic Diplomats forum). Even with that being the case, there are less than five players that have chosen to play a large number of zero year games. They have done a great deal to advance the knowledge of what is possible for optimal play in rapid conquest. The record went from just over 30,000 to now over 90,000 in a few months since this group began competing. You think this is a bad thing. I think it's a great thing and that they are to be commended.

Fundamentally though, I'm not saying you should be unable to play the game as you would like. You are saying we should not be able to play it as we like. What gives you that right?

Additionally, if the Metaverse were wholly meaningless, why was it created at all? And who says it is meaningless? You? To a great many players it has at least some meaning. These players largely comprise the most skilled players and passionate fans of the game. I don't feel that they, or their accomplishments, are meaningless (in as much as any computer game actually can matter).

Well, seeing as we are into sweeping generalisations here... clearly, you are not a "metaverse player" because you use the built in cheat codes to give you an advantage, and therefore cannot submit the cheat-flagged games!

Of course, I do not know if that is true - just as you have no idea what settings I, or any other player, use at the start of the game. Your wildly incorrect assumption that all MV players always play with tech trading enabled is laughable.

As you are not interested in MV games, feel free to edit your tech trees to make any tech you like "non-tradeable" - or just disable tech trading through the existing option. I suppose what you actually want is the tech trading turned on so that you can exploit it yourself, but don't want those devilish AIs actually getting anything useful when they have the temerity to trade with some other race instead of you.

This is WHY I want unique tech trading turned off. Even a toggle to do it would be fine. It's the fact that the AI does not know the difference, nor cares, that makes the unique techs no big deal. If everybody can have them and use them, they are no longer "unique", and there's no reason other than eye candy to have them at all.

When I first heard of all the unique techs, I was genuinely intrigued... but I find the execution of the concept a bit weak. I really do like to trade techs. It's very useful in the beginning to help leverage the invariable crap start location I get, but the fact I can get techs that my race could never use, yet amazingly get benefits from is ludicrous.

"Sir... we've just acquired a unique tech from the insect people that will allow us to raise our planets population by 30%!..."

"Really?!"

"Yes, Sir! We just need to find a way to make all of our planets inhabitants no more than 3'8" tall..."

As for the metaverse... snipped

T

Ahhh another case of "i can't do what they do so i will label what they do as cheating or exploitation and make them look bad".

When you have played over 350 games with out cheating, come talk to me then. When you can score over 80K in under 7 mins of game time WITHOUT tech trading....come see me then too.....

Since though you nave neither the patience or intelligence to compete with the rest of the community go away and enjoy the game as you see fit.

Opps did i make a generalization.....how rude of me.....

I don't understand the objections to this. It would be as an option, which you could choose whether to have or not have. So if you want to exploit the tech trees, by all means go ahead. At least let those of us who hate races using other races unique techs be able to prevent it without having to disable ALL tech trading.

I for one have made no objections, in point of fact i believe it to be a great idea. Either have it set or as a toggle, both ways would do well i believe.

I'd love to see the option of no "tech brokering".

That is, you can only trade away a tech that you yourself researched.

This would add some flavor, since unique racial techs can still be traded away, but, the race that has the unique tech in their research tree is the one that decides who ends up getting it.

This should also be easy to code up.

This was the best thing to happen to CIV4... was very handy in that it kept the AI from spamming techs to each other, but allowed you to trade fairly well. Along with keeping the most Unique of techs "unique", it would be the best option IMHO...

T

ROFL.

You really do have to wonder sometimes what was going on in the heads of those that created the rules for modern english... no pun intended :LOL:

T