You're right, but as said, untill now all the premium suites did not have WB encrypted, and as far as i know, it's nowhere noticed that for the first time premium suite will be like that ...


You are perfectly also right (and that's why once have to ask permission to the author/sailor before uploading any ports), and also, the previous premium suites with WB not encrypted were licensed and copyrighted the same way. Though nothing is changing with that point.

Except now Stardock has a technology that restricts it better and protects them more without impacting their clients (excepting a few that have posted here).

Again . . it's a bit early to be accusing Stardock of malicious intent or abusing their clients.

But . . and I'll say it again and again . . the user has never been promised the use of the graphics when they bought a skin.  they Bought a skin and the graphics were available.  We, the users were "lucky" in this regard.  At the moment, when you buy a theme through MyColors, you get the theme, not the images.

/me waits and enjoys the themes and uses WB and IP to recolour as needed

... or exepting others who don't really understand or even know what's changing, or don't know about this topic, or don't want to expose themselves too much, or ... (a lot of possibilities in fact)


I hope so but perhaps, perhaps not ...
When you add that Important point to another one, relative as well to MyColors and avaible suites:
what about consumers who have bought premiums suites when they were just been on sold in past by Stardock, and which are being ported now to MyColors suites ? Will they get those MyColors suites for free ? the answer is just NO, they'll have to re buy each of them $4.95 (i know i've just had an exhange with [email protected] because i was surprised to haven't received my download links for Omega & Liquidox MyColors suites ...   )
I can remember some words writen over there in forums and/or in announced news in the past: "you buy and that way you support Stardock" (or something meaning same). Sure we supported Stardock, and what's the giving back ? having to re pay (whatever the price in fact) for something which didn't change apart the way to be sold. It's nearlly laughable for how it's just ridiculous.

(Note for myself: don't forget to set the list of all stuff/subscriptions bought to Stardock and how many $ it represents since 1999 ...)

neophil waits and enjoys past themes and past version of IP & Icondevelopper to build recolored pack as needed  :p 
WWW Link

Well, that is the way it works now... We have seen great ports (with permission of course) for purchase themes and people like me were learning from them a great deal. It was a long time ago when I began to port the great Pixtudio Suites like Universe Metal or Logika, which I have purchased from day 1 they were sold. After some time I found myself purchasing them again from Stardock, as Pixtudio handed the rights over and there was no opportunity for customers already owning the suites. Same happens now for all the older suites that were or are redone by Stardock Design and that I bought before eben twice(and those are plenty in my case). And : Most of the purchase suites are just not complete without all the ports good willing people have done ! Maybe Joe User is okay with having to use different and mostly not fitting skins in adition to that, but I bet there are plenty of us that won't. Being unable to even do a private port is just, well, crap.

Let's face it, the so called community now is treated as dumb Joe user customers, not community anymore.

Great example is the Apogee Icon Suite, I have purchased it and updates and addons were promised for YEARS now, without anything happening (except for ridiculous excuses for why the update still isn't up). Last thing I saw was that an eventual update will cost again, which would be alright for me, but I BET, there will be no discount for people that purchased it when it came out.

Face it, this is the way Stardock is run now. There nearly is nothing left of the company I loved so much for years (and I still haven't given up upon), which makes me really sad. Great skinners were bought in and rarely do any free skins nowadays anymore (in opposite to what was told us when that all began). The last big thing by Mormegil for example was the the free Icon-A-Day project which was 3 years ago. MikeB ? Updates, last new free skin 2 years ago. Treetog ? Updates, last new free skin 2 years ago. Alexandrie ? 2 or 3 years ? And i am sure I forgot someone on the list. Of course I can imagine, they are all busy with purchase suites, but please give them some time to do free skins also, as that is also a good promotion for You and for the software and subscriptions we also pay for.

Brad, You may demote me for these open words (again), but I still hope You rethink the business model Stardock is run a bit. You do great software and Stardock Design does great skins and I defend it where I can, but some things aren't just right IMHO and are getting worse every month.

Reason for this long sermaon : Encrypted graphics just fit that picture perfectly.

not a big fan of camo gear...but it's a good skin.

Oh please, You nearly sound like a DRM and/or crippled CDs advocate on music. What is next ? Rootkits to protect all the Stardock content (I know that is a bit over the top, and with pure intention, but still...) ?

And regarding the "few" clients that are posting their opinion about this : We all know what can happen : Either one is demoted or in the best case accused a wanting freeloader or a whiner...

To Treetog : This is a great and good looking skin, but the way it is offered is just not right IMHO. I even was thinking of purchasing it, but not if I cannot do any ports for my own privat use to fit my 'consistent desktop' needs...

Let me respond to some of the points raised here:

1) Why are the graphics encrypted? Because when we did MyColors themes with licensed content, the license holders required it.  However, on OUR stuff, we don't have to encrypt (just that MyColors doesn't currently support non-encrypted skins).  Therefore, we are going to look at allowing Object Desktop users to get .suite files.

2) Why doesn't

3)

No, the community is being treated precisely as it now asks: like customers.  The fact is, the vocal majority of the so-called "community" are purely consumers now.  The days where "the community" rolled up their sleaves and wrote software, made lots of skins and themes, and so forth has long gone.

Nowadays, the "community" (and I'm not speaking about WinCustomize users but the entire skinning community) basically just sits back and waits for Stardock to solve all their problems while complaining the whole time about everything we do.

And the cold hard reality is that there is very very little incentive to keep being the baby daddy for the do-nothing elements of "the community". 

In the PC gaming world, people love Stardock.  Our games get great reviews, have huge loyal fan bases and make millions in sales and these are on things that are sold for $50 a piece.

Meanwhile, in the "skinning community" we spend months making a kick ass theme for $10 and all we get is grief.

Stardock didn't change. The community did. It moved from being a symbiotic relationship between users, skinners, and developers (remember all those times I used to say that?) to one where the users basically take on the role of entitlement. They just want to be consumers but not take on the consequences of being consumers - having to pay money to other people to make things for them.

No.  Great skinners faded away and STARDOCK brought them back into skinning by hiring them full time to get back into skinning.  If you think Treetog or MikeB or Alexandrie or whoever would be cranking out great free skins still after 9 years you're kidding yourself.  People's interests change over time and skinning is very laborous. Skinning is supposed to be fun. It's a hobby for people and people come and go.  When "the community" stopped coming forward with great new skinners, we had start doing that too.  Luckily, there's still some fantastic community skinners out there but it's nothing like it used to be.

Actually, the argument is the other way around.  Consumers need to make the case as to why Stardock should continue supporting "the community" at all.  The ONLY reason MyColors themes are still being focused towards "the community" at all is because of Karmagirl and the skinners who still want to support the community. 

Me? I'm too disgusted with the constant bitching and whining from a group that used to be self-sustaining but now sits back waiting for Stardock to give them everything.

"The community" has ceded the entire skinning world to us and we never asked for that burden.  Hell, even TGT Soft is dead.  The closest thing "the community" has to an alternative to Stardock at this point is The Skins Factory who make us look like bloody hippies in comparison.

Where's the next Hoverdesk or Rocketdock update or Litestep or whatever?

You talk about how it used to be. Let's talk about how it used to be.  At the start of this, the community made its own skins, themes, icons, etc.  There were developers making things like eFX and Chroma and Litestep and Hoverdesk and on and on.  Now look at it. The so-called "community" basically just sits on their butts waiting for us to release a new program and now we're stuck making the skins and icons and themes too.  Heck, we have to make the freaking tutorials and writeups ourselves now too. 

At least in gaming there's modders and such.  The customization community used to be like that too.  But not anymore, now it's the equivalent of people wanting us to make the software and make the mods too and complain about the way we do the mods for them.

If it weren't for a handful of generous, talented, wonderful artists who still share their awesome skins, themes, and icons, we'd be carrying the whole burden.  Remember the original unspoken social contract? We make the software. The community makes the skins.  Not anymore though.

So here's my answer to those complaining about encrypted graphics or the whopping $9.95 price tag or whatever: Make your own damn stuff.  Start skinning. Support people who are making skins and themes. Pick up a book and start writing some software.  But until then, get off our asses and quit acting like a bunch of welfare cases.  We'll bend over backwards to help people.  But it gets hard to have sympathy for groups of people who a) resent having to pay $10 for a massive artwork undertaking and b) think they are entitled to to do whatever they want with our artwork. 

If people want to do stuff with our skins and themes (modify them or make ports or whatever) that's fine. Just ask or tell us what you want.  But what we don't like is the air of entitlement.  We're willing to help you make ports and such. But don't act like you're entitled to our artwork or us jumping through special hoops.  Treat us with the same level of respect you expect to be treated with.

Because at the end of the day, Stardock is a business. We are in this to make a profit. We have always been in this to make a profit.  And if the community isn't going to get off its ass and start making stuff, then you force us to make it for you and we're not going to do it for free because we have to pay people to do it.  The "good will" of the community has long long been squandered by whiney unsupportive posts.

Now, for most people reading this, we thank you for your support. When I tar "the community" the people who I'm aiming it at know what I speak of.  There's a long history that those of you newer to skinning are probably not aware of. We're talking about the old guard who were around back in the early days of skinning who want the benefits of those days without the responsibility.  That community, as far as I can tell, is long gone.  What we have today is a different type of community of more casual, mainstream users who simply want to get a thing that works and don't care if the images are encrypted or if they require a slick, easy to use client to apply the skins.  Those in old guard community who have a problem with that know what they need to do.

Wow.   :SURPRISED:

helluva response.

Wow is right. I completely understand where Brad's coming from as far as the whining and complaining, and I understand the reasons for the encrypted skin files. If thats how it has to be, then so be it.

I am rather sad though that the "community" spirit has apparently taken a hike. I rather enjoyed seeing people come together and bang out "extras" for the skins being offered...paid for skin or free...and have enjoyed being a part of that.

My only concern is whether I will still be able to do that or not. If the encrypted skin files are made available for ports that would be great...if not then they simply won't have all the extras which would be sad. But as long as I can buy or download skins I can make docks for I'll be a happy camper. I've always loved OD and this site and thats why I've continued to make docks for as many skins as I can and support OD the site as much as I can.

But aside of creating docks for skins...the one other thing that has kept me here has been the community spirit...and it would really be sad to see that disappear...if it hasn't already. I really don't know what else to say at this point. I guess its wait and see.

It doesn't have to be that way.  All someone needed to do is ask and we would find a way (which we will).  Instead, we have people who act like they're entitled to it. 

The issue isn't someone requesting something. The issue is people insulting us or acting like they're entitled to this sort of thing which they're not.

The community spirit, like you mention, is the key.  To me, it is the concept that we're all on the same team. We're all trying to do cool stuff together.  When people start accusing us of being malicious simply because the MyColors format is encrypted that's where the spirit, in my mind, goes away.  If someone's first gut reaction to something we do is that we're the bad guys, my response is "screw you guys" at that point.

Let's bottom line this: The Camoflage suite is one of the best suites that's ever been made. Ever.  And to see its release marred by people whining because the skin images are encrypted - when they could have simply ASKED us for them instead of flaming us - makes me want to just tell people where they can go. 

Glad you see things like this Brad, that's what i waited from Stardock.
I reacted when someone in the thread said maybe Stardock could select a few senior members who regularly make ports skins and let them have un-encrypted files, because i think everyone should have the possibility to begin in skinning and doing ports, that's the way i began myself in the early begining in doing ports from treetog's pixels (as a big fan of him), and that's the way the genese of community was.


Just hope you're not thinking about me. I just wanted from Stardock (and for everyone) a clear position (as english isn't my native language, it's fairly difficult to succeed to tell what i want to)

Okay, some points taken. I think I have to rethink a whole lot about my expectations. or maybe I just should arrive to the 21st century on this matter, I don't know.

Well...I hope I've never come across sounding like that...if I have it certainly wasn't intended. And I was already aware that you had mentioned something about trying to work out the image thing some how in another post or irc I think which is great! I already have a request about the skin images emailed to Angie days ago regarding this and I'm waiting hear back from her about it.



My one concern was how you would be able to deal with it since so many people create all kinds of extras for the skins. I for one would really appreciate it...but I would also understand if it became a pain to do. I can still create docks even from a screenshot, but not as many or be able to include some of the smaller details of the skin. In fact I already have a set of 4 tabbed and 4 side docks for the Camouflage skin made almost the same day the screenshot of it was posted, but I'm waiting to see if anything can be worked out regarding the images in case theres something in the skin I can use for additional docks.



I just hope we can keep the community spirit alive! Otherwise I have a $2000 deck of cards sitting on my desk. :LOL:

FrogBoy, your responses in this thread are right on the money! I agree with you 100%.

neophil:

I wasn't saying that is all they should be available for. Just that if they were not going to be freely available then maybe as an alternative that could be done.
My thinking was that being able to get matching skins posted by a few select members would be better than not having any matching skins posted at all.


---------------




I'm still waiting on any kind of a response to 5 emails asking for permission on a Dragon skin I started right after the Windowblind came out :NOTSURE:

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As for Brads post and the community.

I haven't been around the community long enough to know what it was like back in the beginning. For the most part I feel this is a pretty good community going here. But when you look at it you do see that out of the over 3 million members here it is mainly a group of a few hundred people (at most) that you see regularly participating in a positive manner. And I'm sure seeing the community go from the close knit place it was to this has to be frustrating.

Also as someone who has ran various different businesses over the years, unfortunately other peoples businesses, I completely understand and support his reactions to the negative factors in the community.

It's got to be nice to have the freedom to speak up about it rather than having to bite your tongue for the benefit of others. It's a refreshing thing to see.

I hope You dean't mean the few people that speak up once in a while and try to add some critics to the system. I still think it is not fair to call anybody that has some differing (if even strong) arguments a "whiner", even for being so long with this site and the company.

This is something completely different from all those Stardock haters that don't even have arguments for giving so much s**t to the software and/or the company. If it ends up having/wanting all brownnosers on this site, well, that is even more sad.

No I didn't mean that. As you said those are two different things.

If someone has paid for something and they are not getting what it was stated they are entitled to as of their purchase then they have a right to complain.

My comment wasn't in reference to them.

The people I was referring to are the ones who put down the company just for the sake of doing so, along with people who complain because they didn't do a thorough job of reading up on and checking out what it is they were buying exactly, and then turn around and bitch and complain because they didn't get what they assumed they were getting.

In retrospect I guess the way I worded it was a bit to generalized for the post I put it in. I was reading and responding to the thread but also at the time thinking of the other posts I've seen him make about those people.

But to call people a brownnoser or fanboy just because they happen to agree with someones opinions is also foolish.

-------------

As for the topic that this all started with though.

I can see where it sucks to be using something and after years of using it being upset about things changing. Unfortunately that's the nature of life.

But looking at it realistically has Stardock ever made a promise that all graphics for all themes ever released would be readily available for anyone and everyones personal use?

As far as I'm aware I bought ObjectDesktop knowing that it was a utility that I could utilize with free themes I find or with themes that I purchase from Stardock and/or Master skinners. I don't recall ever reading anywhere that I would always have the ability to pull out any little pixel of those themes and do whatever I wished with it.

In the community spirit and as the system of sale is to give consumers the oportunity of having beta programs and by this way having the feedback to debug the apps, i think the answer should be yes, even if it's not written.
It's kinda contract between both: support us by paying in advance and we will give you better products (including better suites). Both parts are winning this way and everyone is happy  :p 

Well that was not directed at You nor anybody in this thread but that is how things like this nearly always end, even with valid arguments. Maybe I din't make myself clear enough as english is not my native language.

There are TWO communities in my mind and there's a clash between the two.

The first community we'll call Skinning community 1999.  In the old days, the software developers made the software and either gave it away or sold it at a pittance. Skinners made the skins and gave them away. And the users either paid for the software or provided support, tutorials, etc.  It was a symbiotic relationship between the 3 groups.

The second community we'll call skinning community 2003. In this version, the community is populated by 2 groups. Producers and consumers where consumers outnumber producers by a massive margin.

The issue I have, especially with you (c242) is that you want to cherry pick the parts from the two groups. You talk about how you used to love Stardock.  Would that be the Stardock that just made software? The Stardock where the software had a lot of rough edges, was hard to use, but for techies worked out pretty well? And in exchange for software being rough around the edges the developers hung out in the forums on various sites interacting?  Because that's the way the unspoken social contract worked.

Now, the software is expected to be extremely well polished. Work on multiple versions of Windows in both 32-bit and 64-bit versions. And Stardock is now expected to foot the bill for making the skins,  making the tutorials, providing the support, etc. But we're also not supposed to raise prices and our developers are expected to hang out on the forums even though they're being asked to do 5X as much work.

You can't have it both ways.  If you're a consumer, then you're a consumer.  Do you think Microsoft or Electronic Arts or whoever is going to hand out source code or the raw content for you to "mod"?  Of course not.  They're dealing with consumers. If you want to contribute, then work WITH us. 

Just don't sit back with a sense of entitlement saying "Well you used to do X!" because my response is "Yea, and the community used to do Y!". 

 

thats a great looking suite treetog

That's a pleonasm  :LOL: 

Well I do not for one see what the problem is with any of this. I have the new MY Colors Camo skin and for one it only needed a few things changed for my liking. Which is usually just my system and taste. Plus the progress bar images where the correct ones for Vista and was easy to do the tweaks for it.
I did not care for the encryption at first either. But after being able to do adjustments for any of the skins I buy from Stardock for My Colors. I'm a happy camper here. Encryption is there for one reason - to stop theft... we should all work together better here at this community to stop frauds as such from happening. It never would of turned out this way if we had tried to stop these people earlier. But we never care to much for anything till it truely effects us. But I use My Colors a lot here and I'm very happy with it.
I hear there is to be some new ones soon by DanilloOc. You can count on me buying those skins - I feel as he would - protected to sell it as there in the past a lot of the skins where misused and not with permission. Sad for a lot of good artist will give permission. But not for a My Colors theme - those are not just that of the artist.
I got only one more thing. If you do not like it - do your own work and see if someone rips yours? Then maybe you will want it encrypted too~!?

I don't know how many people noticed that statement from the Frog.

After I read the community concerns (which this isn't the only thread that contains them) I started asking around to see what we can do for the community.

At first, people would think that it should be easy just to give out the un-encrypted images, but it's not.  It requires extra man hours and testing as well as changes to our system and products.

This is what we are PLANNING (note that it is not set in stone!):

1) We are updating ThemeManager to bring it up to the current software releases.
2) For the INSPIRED MyColors themes only, there will be a .Suite file for OD subscribers discount sales.  This will NOT happen for IP related Themes.
3) OD subscribers will get a MyColors AND a Suite download when they purchase

Now, this will take some work and will take time to happen.  We will have to go through all the Themes and make .suite files out of them, update the store and web pages and get ThemeManager updated before this happens.

In the mean time, it looks like people are just going to have to work with what they can make.  I don't have a good way of distributing images, and I can't just hand them out to everyone.  They aren't currently in .Suite files, so that isn't an option, either.  

I'll have to think about that one.