The lack of any sort of tactics in this game

from Sins Forums
SPAM SPAM SPAM
SPAM SPAM SPAM
SINS
It took me awhile to realise why there are SO few people playing online

SINS

A game which ACTUALLY punishes you for using tactics.

A game which wanted to get rid of micro so it would be more open to casual players but which makes the  average game take 10 times longer then any other RTS around infact even longer thrn Turn based ones like moo2 or Civilization. So that the casual players that were spose to play it dont ever have the time because they have jobs and lives and havnt remodled there home to resemble the inside of a Advent Progenator and posted Posters of playboy bunnies to all the walls with Advent Uniforms texered on while they sit in there computerchair which they added a belt too because games takes so long you have to be delusional and slightly retarded to play it online in the first place, because otherwise you would get bored looking at the screen constantly clicking build on your shipyards to spam that single unit(LRM,ILLUM) while your tongue hangs out of your mouth and saliva dribbles down your chin while your blank lifeless eyes delight in how your ablity to click a button can let you defeat oppoents who thought that this game required thought and attempted to exercise some which causes a slow idiotic smile spread across your face as they realise there mistake.




why am I angry(Didnt guess?)

EVERY SINGLE ADVENT PLAYER
does one thing
Build Progenator
Spam Illums
I have not seen a single advent player in the last 3 weeks that DID ANYTHING ELSE that wasnt a complete noob.
Ohh
they mix it up
like build some defence vessals if you try to use the only possible counter as tec... fighters..

then once your been totaly smashed... they will build some more capships just for poops and giggles before finishing you off.

The patches have actually caused SPAM to get worse.. such as the massive reduction in damage planet bombarding ships... now you have to spam them too.


When I first got this game.. it was fun... but it slowly dawns on you that its pretty shallow and at the end of the day, the only skill required(besides a bit of luck) is making sure you dont research anything or do anything that could interrupt your steam of spam of a single type of ship and dont attempt to build any kind of defences which they will either go around(turrets) or just make a craploads of levels off for there capships(hangerbays) making them even stronger.


multiplayer
30,383 views 22 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
There are plenty of tactics, thou not many players use them. In case of using illuminators, your tactics involve positioning your ships for maximum damage as well as retreating your ships before they die if they took some damage. Smart players will build a repair bay in adjacent gravity well and retreat ships there. It is better to retreat than lose. And a player retreating ships will always win. Other tactics involve timing your capital ship abilities, as well as micromanaging your support cruisers. With advent alone, micromanaging guardians is a huge boost. You can now toggle the repel ability on and off to conserve antimatter. You manually use the guardian shield because on autocast they tend to cast them together, which is a waste of antimatter. Subjugator's Perseverance also needs microing, while you have to make sure it doesn't use up all the antimatter on Suppression.

There are plenty of tactics in this game. Just because you either don't see them, don't understand them when you do see them, or play exclusively with people who do not understand tactics and still lose, it does not mean they do not exist.
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Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
Right

1.Half of what you just called tactics I call working around bugs.

2.Retreating ships from big battles is next to impossible due to the worst AI I have ever seen in a game.. ships run forwards and ram enemy ships instead of turning around.. capships whcih stand there unable to workout where to go for 10-20 seconds at the gravity well instead of jumping to saftey.

maybe its JUST the TEC ships which I mostly play that seem to do this all the time.. but retreating any ship is next to impossible.

3.using guardians or the like.. great...great..except the money you spent into researching them toe other player put into spamming more ships, and your just "retreated" all the way back to your homeworld where your forced to fight lost your fleet and your brandspanking new guardians have nothing to protect.

5.Illums are overpowered as is, getting them to fire all 3 beams is just further reinforcing the SPAM problem. Also there ablity to focus fire on a forward target and destroy it almost instantly makes retreating from illums almost impossible.. infact you might want to check JUST how much damage 15 illums can do to any capships.. yeah.. you can retreat.. if you do it immedately as the battle starts.
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
This is just a wah wah i lost to an advent player thread. Please don't feed the trolls.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
says the troll.

there are serious SPAM problems currently WITH The game and it also effects LRMS and to a lesser extent even Vasari
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
This game does have tactics. It has been a little while since I played an I am sorry that you are running into noobish players. I came from the starcraft set up, where it was whoever had the most troops in the first 30 secs won. let me just pose this scenario.

When a lot of people complain the devs go back and to tests and change things. However, through the game play that new fix causes a new problem(the infamous PJI Incidents of the Beta tests). This spam problem can be fixed by just figuring out what game you want to play. If you want to play a quick game spam it. Fight Advent v Advent.

Personally I like the way the Advent are laid out. They are designed to make hits through strike craft. An illuminator spam (keep in mind I haven't played in one version) could be pretty easily countered with fighters and gauss cannons. Sins is a numbers game.

There are plenty of tactics in this game. Just because you either don't see them, don't understand them when you do see them, or play exclusively with people who do not understand tactics and still lose, it does not mean they do not exist.


It all depends on your opponet.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
If I could have detected a single well-formed thought in the original post, I suppose I would have more to add....
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
If I could have detected a single well-formed thought in the original post, I suppose I would have more to add....


I know what you mean. The OP is such a waaah waaah in his post , that its hard to really discuss it sensibly because I think it IS a topic worth discussing , just not with the OP.

Ive said my 2 cents in a different thread that I made...

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/313556
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Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
ah...poor thing you.
go play civ or moo will you please
rant somewhere else
if you hate the game this much...stop playin it
pretty simple i think
makes more since than too just sit and cry and ask why the world doesnt revolve around you

this is a topic worth discussing...but i agree with jdhas and P5yy
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Amazing how the people claiming its a topic worth discussing but not in this thread.. Are posting in this thread... that its not worth posting in this thread....
Confusing?


AvatarCenturion
SC isnt who has the most units in 30 seconds, I even won a match for Australain finals in the PGL just by beating off a goon spam with SCVs.


It was all to do with placement, using the units and terrain to your advantage.

Take zerglings... 20 zerglings cost less then 8 marines and 2 medics(with out stim).. in the open the zerglings win.

However stick your 2 medics infront of the marines at a chokepoint and the zerglings die and you may not even lose a single unit.

IN SINS
None of this comes into play.. most units have the same range, and the ones that do have a longer range generaly dont matter(for range) because the other units just close in.

There is no terrain, so the tactics have to be in the units.
But the Unit tactics come down to spam because just massing a single set of units gives you more power then you lose by researching other techs and in most instances then mixing a fleet.
There are some such as guardin/host but once again.. this costs more and is harder to accheive then Illum spam.



The whole thing is that Units are to generalised.

LRM/Illums are decent to good agasint everything in damage and cost.
If they were only good agasint buildings and cruisers they would have 2 uses, For cracking a planets defences and for destroying enemy cruisers which caps can get swamed by.

The game also needs things like astroids belts IN systems and orbiting moons gas clouds with effects.
Such as
Only small frigates and fighters/bombers can navigate through astroids, larger ships like caps and cruisers have to go around.

Diffrent gas clouds alot like armarda
some that drop shields.. some that increase shield regen or interfere with diffrent kinds of weapons.

Example a cloud that interfers with the targeting on missiles so missiles attempting to hit things in the cloud have a 20% reduced chance of hitting.

Another cloud could reflect part of beams back upon the attacker so say mass illums wouldnt want to fire at things in the cloud.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
I would have to agree that the units in general, and the long range units in specific, are not specialized enough.

I don't think there is enough space in orbit of planets to place much terrain without over-crowding it.

I think the best avenue at this point is. as you said, to specialize the units more; to give them effective counters and in turn make them counters of other specific instances. That would go some way to reducing the usefulness of single unit fleets.

Another, possibly additional, approach would be to take some effort in complimentary units. If units were more effective, in a serious way, by mixing different types, then mixed fleets would become more attractive. I suppose some work on the support side of the ships should be in order.

Some combination of the two would probably do wonders for the complexity of the game, but it would also make it more difficult for new players. It will be up to Ironclad whether they are brave enough to risk alienating some players who don't want complexity, to satisfy what seems to be the majority who do.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Amazing how the people claiming its a topic worth discussing but not in this thread.. Are posting in this thread... that its not worth posting in this thread....Confusing?AvatarCenturionSC isnt who has the most units in 30 seconds, I even won a match for Australain finals in the PGL just by beating off a goon spam with SCVs.It was all to do with placement, using the units and terrain to your advantage.Take zerglings... 20 zerglings cost less then 8 marines and 2 medics(with out stim).. in the open the zerglings win.However stick your 2 medics infront of the marines at a chokepoint and the zerglings die and you may not even lose a single unit.IN SINSNone of this comes into play.. most units have the same range, and the ones that do have a longer range generaly dont matter(for range) because the other units just close in.There is no terrain, so the tactics have to be in the units.But the Unit tactics come down to spam because just massing a single set of units gives you more power then you lose by researching other techs and in most instances then mixing a fleet.There are some such as guardin/host but once again.. this costs more and is harder to accheive then Illum spam.The whole thing is that Units are to generalised.LRM/Illums are decent to good agasint everything in damage and cost.If they were only good agasint buildings and cruisers they would have 2 uses, For cracking a planets defences and for destroying enemy cruisers which caps can get swamed by.The game also needs things like astroids belts IN systems and orbiting moons gas clouds with effects.Such asOnly small frigates and fighters/bombers can navigate through astroids, larger ships like caps and cruisers have to go around.Diffrent gas clouds alot like armardasome that drop shields.. some that increase shield regen or interfere with diffrent kinds of weapons.Example a cloud that interfers with the targeting on missiles so missiles attempting to hit things in the cloud have a 20% reduced chance of hitting.Another cloud could reflect part of beams back upon the attacker so say mass illums wouldnt want to fire at things in the cloud.


I'm going to have to agree with you on that post. I do not see a point to the asteroid belt being there or the gas clouds if they have no significant value other then just to make it look cool. They should make certain affects to them to add more strategy and a purpose.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
a simple fix would be to just make each unit of the same type thats built COST 1% or so extra then the last.

Infact, if this was added the whole current expense system could be droped.

Instead of researching an ability to have more ships, your limited by cost.
So its actually BETTER for you to research new ship plans and build those and have a mixed fleet then to spam a specific unit.

It also has the added benifit of not making a player unable to rebuild a fleet if they have heavy losses from another player late game due to the fact they have massive tax despite having no fleet.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
I hate when people cry about other peoples tactics. Any stragety people find that works that other people cant defeat becomes noob stragety. No you just suck.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Drath you are right about many of the players and things like that. But consider this. This is a real time STRATEGY game. Tactics are on an entire different scale(Homeworld :D). On top of that, fine spamming illums is hard to beat(pfft not really well maybe now with a malice nerf :( ), but that just means that the other player has a better strategy then you. Now people are going to start whining about how spamming illums does not mean that you are a better player. I didnt say that. I said that it is a good strategy(not a great one, I spam CAPS). He might totally suck as TEC or Vasari. Better player is a relative term.

Ill put it this way, when he started using illums did you start using LRMS? Well why the hell NOT? The LRM is a stronger unit. ADAPT or DIE is the way the world works. Why shouldn't this carry over to our games. The illuminator is a weapon that gives you accuracy and damage over a long distance. In real life that would be mass produced! I didn't see Germany going HAX when bombing raids started in earnest over WWII Berlin.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
LRMS while overpowred lose to Illums for cost.

adapt?

second thread your suggested capships to counter illums, since a fleet of 10-20 illums with a cap can be at your homeworld before you can afford all the tech upgrades and cost of a second cap... I would like to see a replay you have of this counter...

I aint saying you cant do it... but I havnt found a way too.

even making units do circles around the illums so only there side guns are actually fireing on the target they want to kill and causing there mainguns to spread out damage and do no damage while there not even facing my ships.. I still get slaughtered badly

Ive tried LRMS,Scouts,Flak,Kodiaks,All Cap ships, stationary defences.

The ONLY semi counter is defences with a Sova or too.. except being bottled up in systems makes it almost impossible to expand and counter...
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
In reference to ships not retreating properly. While it is a problem, the player needs to compensate. Yes the ships tend to ram stuff, that's why good players will position their ships so they don't ram ships. I even seem people put their capships on hold position, facing the phase lane. The capship didn't fight, it just soaked up XP, and if it was attacked would run instantly.

It is bad for to fight Illuminators with LRMs. Strategic failure in the making if you try it. Unless you can outnumber then pretty good, I wouldn't recommend it. On defense it is doable if the enemy has quite a few jumps between his flet and frigate factory. I usually prefer to get HC right away vs Illuminators. It's not hard because unlike other long range ships, illuminators need 3 labs, which is only 2 less than HC. Starting close to vasari is way worse than starting close to Advent as TEC. Thou LRMs are better match for Assailants than Illumiantors, it is still pretty tough fight if he can retreat his units. And add to the misery of TEC are their terrible fighters.

As far as complaining about terrain... this is space what the hell do you want? Only terrain would be gravity well effects like explosions near gas giants that damage other ships. Range is useful as is speed, it is just not as useful if your ships sit there. But if you circle and chase, it becomes very important.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Astax we are going for gameplay not realism...

Space
A place where alot of micrometorrites are traving at faster then half the speed of light.
Where any kind of intersteller ship will need have a defence agasint hypervelocity mass projectiles but where TEC autocannons can harm otherships.

So lets not start talking about realism here.....
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
LRMS while overpowred lose to Illums for cost.adapt?second thread your suggested capships to counter illums, since a fleet of 10-20 illums with a cap can be at your homeworld before you can afford all the tech upgrades and cost of a second cap... I would like to see a replay you have of this counter...I aint saying you cant do it... but I havnt found a way too.even making units do circles around the illums so only there side guns are actually fireing on the target they want to kill and causing there mainguns to spread out damage and do no damage while there not even facing my ships.. I still get slaughtered badlyIve tried LRMS,Scouts,Flak,Kodiaks,All Cap ships, stationary defences.The ONLY semi counter is defences with a Sova or too.. except being bottled up in systems makes it almost impossible to expand and counter...


Have you tried carriers with fighters in them to go after the illums? Then you can use the rest of your fleet to eat their defense vessels.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
And since I can't find an "edit" button (again):

You could always just deny them battle and go attack thier homeworld...
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
Game play over realism? You haven't explained how "terrain" would make the game play better. I think it would make it suck.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
there are several mods that make the size of grav wells much much larger...
personaly i dont like it. becuase it significantly slows down the game
but check em out you might like em
(or jus mod yourself)