A Patient, but Saddened player: MasterT

Read, you can see why ICO suffers

from Sins Forums
I know that many people on this forum make rediculous posts that are sometimes true, and sometimes not, but them doing that is honestly not part of the solution...

I play various times throughout the week, and to make sure i have my facts straight, i've tried to play during the afternoons, and evenings of every day, but the general fact remains the same.  There are very few players on, and a sacred few of them that can host games... I've witnessed 10 people leave ICO because they cannot find a game to play, because NO ONE CAN HOST :(, and it leads to this frustrating port forwarding thing, and i am not calling port forwarding in general frustrating, because i've had to do it for Starcraft, but honestly?  I have to do it multiple times, and it has gotten to a point where i am sick of doing it and i stopped.

Before I say the next thing, i would like to say i consider myself a decent Sins player, so this is in no way biased, however, there are a number of games hosted that are only for "pros", when it is hard enough to find a game, and players, it is dissapointing that people boot for this.

And, i know Ironclad will say that they do their best to fix the minidumps, but in reality, i dont see how its possible that they are trying that hard, because seriously? this game does not require a gaming computer, by any standards, and games such as COD4, dont minidump randomly, and a better comparison, Starcraft, does not do this random minidumpage either.  Not only is it a problem, updates have come out and it still happens, so my closing words of wisdom would be, Stardock/Ironclad, save your strength, you get good publicity from some great PC reviewers (PC Gamer),  in which they bow down to you.  Why have you destroyed this game, do not blame it on finals, please don't, its not the problem, the real problem is, Ironclad, and their clunky online!!!


If you want to salvage your memory as a game who atleast tried to repair the damage you have done to such a great idea, work on 1.1, and WORK on it, you will not have many happy campers if more minidumps happen...
multiplayer
78,191 views 31 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Are they allowed to eat?
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
You should only have to forward your ports once if you're doing it right. While it's true that the basic user doesn't know how to do this, most tried and true users can.

It's not a perfect system.

COD4 has a major studio behind it, as well as a massive publisher.

Ironclad is independent. It's impossible to compare the two companies and expect the same results.

Bugs happen. They even happen in mainstream games. Ironclad is easily one of the most dedicated development teams in terms of working to sort out solutions. Be patient. They are working on fixes for various issues including the dumps.

WindowBlinds - Free yourself of the default settings, customize your desktop.
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
For arakcheev:
why do you think i then compared this game with Starcraft...

For p5yy:
Yes they're allowed to eat, but what, they've had a long ass time to fix a technical problem, and they need to put their minds together. What a terrible post p5yy, as i said i was patient, but i am just wondering what it is they are actually doing, as i saw one or two small changes in the entire 1.05 patch
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Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Its not Ironclad's fault that there are hardware vendors out there who fail on their task to provide adequate driver updates.

From last time I looked into this subject, it is only Nvidia card owners who are getting these issues mainly. It would explain why I have never seen the issue on my ATI equipped system.

Therefore its not always just the software developer's fault, so please keep this in mind.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
You make so many baseless assumptions
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
For p5yy:
Yes they're allowed to eat, but what, they've had a long ass time to fix a technical problem, and they need to put their minds together. What a terrible post p5yy, as i said i was patient, but i am just wondering what it is they are actually doing, as i saw one or two small changes in the entire 1.05 patch


Actually it isnt a bad post :p

Sins had over a half a year of beta testing and only a few had problems with hosting and join games which got fixed with the port forwarding.

Now the problem you seem to have is a rare one, that few have. That was also explained by the devs some time ago.

And, i know Ironclad will say that they do their best to fix the minidumps, but in reality, i dont see how its possible that they are trying that hard

what? not trying hard enough? What do you know about it? Have you ever done any programming? Have you ever seen the code for it? Im getting abit tired of people saying that when they absolutly have no idea what they are talking about. So please stop telling them they are doing a bad job when you have no idea what your talking about. Its something thats not going to be fixed in a week.

games such as COD4, dont minidump randomly, and a better comparison, Starcraft, does not do this random minidumpage

You cant compare those 2 games with Sins.
Sins uses P2P (Peer-to-peer)


COD4 uses A server based network, so does Starcraft but its abit different.


Dont get me wrong, i do understand that getting minidumps are sad, but those are actually good to get. They are used by the devs to see what went wrong.
When you get any please send them to [email protected] so they can have a look at it. It might be that your problem is totally different.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Are they allowed to eat?


Sometimes they're allowed to have pizza, the fuel of programmers.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
Are they allowed to eat?Sometimes they're allowed to have pizza, the fuel of programmers.


Beer, don't forget the beer
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
If you want to salvage your memory as a game who atleast tried to repair the damage you have done to such a great idea, work on 1.1, and WORK on it, you will not have many happy campers if more minidumps happen...


The bulk of the dev team at IC has been working on 1.1 since the 1.04 release. It's hardly a small task given all that we've got planned, and the size of the dev team.
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Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
why do you think i then compared this game with Starcraft...


Which is a major hole in your argument, anyway. The hardware in Starcraft's days was considerably more simplistic compared to what developers have to deal with today. Routers weren't used everywhere as they are now. Antivirus, firewalls, Windows security, etc were much less advanced. Processors, video cards, memory.. I could go on.

It's kinda like complaining that modern cars break down, then pointing to a wooden wagon and saying "See, that still works, why can't your car?"
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Sinnin 4 ever whooah
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Multianna is tired of people talking bad about them well I am tired of people not being harsh enough. The facts are I puchased a product that seems to work 30 percent of the time. I will help where I can but it is not my responsability to pick up the slack of Ironclad. I do work in electronic engineering and we have a software team of about 10 that are constantly going through millions of lines of code and they usually have things fixed in a week. They have had months and no update that they released has impacted the issued. Multianna is right about one thing we dont know what they are doing, maybe they only have 3 or 4 total devs. If this is the case I am sorry but personally I would like a refund.
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Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
THe issue of multiplayer numbers still remains. This game just has horrible interface for online. An example of excellent online interface is GPGnet which gives supreme commander a very strong online community. I believe if Something like this for sins were made then almost everyone who owns this game would play online.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
THe issue of multiplayer numbers still remains. This game just has horrible interface for online. An example of excellent online interface is GPGnet which gives supreme commander a very strong online community. I believe if Something like this for sins were made then almost everyone who owns this game would play online.


A gpg type thing? Nahhh

I tell you what sort of interface would pwn - An IRC Interface. Then Anyone who owns sins and has an internet connection will probably hop onto Online sins. IRC rules
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
For arakcheev:why do you think i then compared this game with Starcraft...


Right because starcraft doesn't have a huge company behind it either.(In case you didn't notice, that was sarcasm) Also PLEASE do not compare ICO to battle.net. No insult to IC and Stardock(remember you own :D) but blizzard pioneered their way through one of the buggiest and most innovative multiplayer networks on EARTH(Diablo 2 was practically an MMO). NOW they are THE experts on multiplayer. Back then they had their own share of problems. Anyone remember being killed as soon as you stepped out of a portal in Diablo II, I do..stupid teammates. So while you are comparing them to COD 4 and starcraft(made by a 'SMALL' company) please check your facts.

Also, the minidump issue has nothing to do with the power of your computer. It has to do with the way multiplayer saved games work(correct me if I am wrong on this one).

I will agree with the fact that not enough people play. But honestly what do you expect? This game didnt have a big market in the first place. Most of us dont play the hard level AI anyway(I still play on easy...so I like winning, sue me!) We probably consider multiplayer not really necessary. I use ICO to chat and for pickup games where skills don't really matter.

Finally: THIS GAME WAS RELEASED IN FEBRUARY. IT HAS BEEN A GRAND TOTAL OF 3 MONTHS. CUT THEM SOME DAMN SLACK. I've worked in testing before(enterprise communications solutions is all I will say) it takes a WHILE to fix bugs. This is because bugfixes usually make more bugs and the little buggers multiply! Trying to track them down is a horrid task. Trying to fix them is even worse. Its been 3 months, the worst I've seen them at is when my game crapped out in 1.03 and I had to wait till 1.04 to play again :(. Even still that could have been fixed if I had archived the last WORKING version on my computer.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
THe issue of multiplayer numbers still remains. This game just has horrible interface for online. An example of excellent online interface is GPGnet which gives supreme commander a very strong online community. I believe if Something like this for sins were made then almost everyone who owns this game would play online.


I don't really think it's the interface, to be honest. True, the ICO lobby isn't too flashy as far as features go, but I believe the main limiter is just the gameplay itself. Sins was designed to take a while to play through - which usually doesn't translate that well into an online environment. It's one of the main reasons I never played it online since launch, only in Beta. This type of game really appeals more to the single player or LAN/MP with friends crowd more than it does the standard online RTS crowd.
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Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
A gpg type thing? NahhhI tell you what sort of interface would pwn - An IRC Interface. Then Anyone who owns sins and has an internet connection will probably hop onto Online sins. IRC rules


Thats a baseless assumption right there, Mr. Hypocrite.

Just so you know, it has been confirmed by Ironclad that one of the causes of minidumps is because of certain configurations of Nvidia hardware and I only mentioned it to prove that this entire situation is not entirely Ironclad's fault.

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

@ Nighraid3r

As far as the network/hosting issues go. All anyone had to do was look at the stickies to be able to set themselves up for MP play. Unless a person doesn't have physical access to their NAT-devices (routers) there is no reason at all why the instructions in my guide wouldn't work for them 100% of the time.

Having said that, you do know that their will be new NAT-T (NAT traversal) type netcode in version 1.1 that will "tunnel" past/through routers/firewalls?

I for one don't relish allowing anything to "tunnel" past my controls into my various networks, but I do understand that some people don't care enough to try, and other's simply cannot (those at universities etc.) forward traffic correctly.

This being the case, everyone should realize the DEVS actually did all of us a favour (speaking from a security perspective) by not using NAT-T type netcode to begin with. NAT-T and the security concerns surrounding it have been hot-topics for years, but in either case Microsoft patched the default NAT-T ON behaviour in Windows XP Pro to OFF in order to secure desktops better.

thanks,

the Monk
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
@phazon

Lol my post about baseless assumptions was aimed at the Original Poster - ironclad not working hard etc . I actually remember I had the reply screen on for ages , because I was going to type a bigger post. You might have ninja'ed infront of me.

tho yea lol , I guess I was a hypocrite  :LOL: 
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Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
Also, the minidump issue has nothing to do with the power of your computer. It has to do with the way multiplayer saved games work(correct me if I am wrong on this one).


Ok, I will (unless I'm wrong too, which has been known to occur). A minidump is not an error. A minidump is a detailed description of any error that occurs in sins. It is a file that will tell the devs (if any of you whiners bother to send it) what went wrong and why (with their knowhow). If you want to complain about the "mini-dump" problem, at least know what one is.

I've played plenty of games, including the aforementioned supreme commander (that crashes more than sins) and if those comapanies used the "minidump" system, you would have a "minidump problem" on those games too, because they crash just as much if not moreso than sins.

And to top this thread off completely, although I don't play much sins, I have seen only a few (literally like 3) minidumps lately. Very good game interms of technical bugs. Now gameplay bugs is another story...
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
@phazon Lol my post about baseless assumptions was aimed at the Original Poster - ironclad not working hard etc . I actually remember I had the reply screen on for ages , because I was going to type a bigger post. You might have ninja'ed infront of me.tho yea lol , I guess I was a hypocrite   


My bad. Should've realised that since you weren't quoting me. :)

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
[...] you do know their will be new NAT-T (NAT traversal) type netcode in version 1.1 that will "tunnel" past/through routers/firewalls? I for one don't relish allowing anything to "tunnel" past my controls into my various networks



I can understand that a professional network administrator would secure his tight controls.

But, here, in the context of home PC gaming, what's the problem if a game "tunnels" though the router if the source of the tunneling (in this case, IC) is trustworthy ?

(It's only a question ... to which I do not know the answer.)
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
No insult to IC and Stardock(remember you own ) but blizzard pioneered their way through one of the buggiest and most innovative multiplayer networks on EARTH


they couldnt take a hint, even with more modern and shared knowledge?
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
Nightraid3r so since I am born in the 21st century I should posses all knowledge of the years behind me? I know I am engaging in reductio ad absurdum but that is what your statement amounts to. They are a small development studio and this is their first game. They are entitled to their share of mistakes.
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
I can understand that a professional network administrator would secure his tight controls.But, here, in the context of home PC gaming, what's the problem if a game "tunnels" though the router if the source of the tunneling (in this case, IC) is trustworthy ?(It's only a question ... to which I do not know the answer.)



@ Sorceresss

As long as something on the inside of your network is "listening" for and "accepting" tunneled traffic other traffic can masquerade as said traffic. Just because IC won't be sending you bad traffic doesn't mean someone else can't "piggy-back" the hole you've now allowed into your network.

The biggest misconception with regard to internet security is that only businesses need concern themselves with security. Who's computers do you think the "bad guy" uses when he attacks businesses? Those of home users who didn't care/know enough to secure their systems. :)


the Monk