Introducing PUG matches -- balanced teams, competitive games, custom maps

from Sins Forums


My friend Joe and I would like to start a PUG (pickup games) match channel for the Sins community because PUG matches have the potential to be much more fun than merely playing against random people online.

What is a PUG match? Basically, it's similar to a clan match but without schedules, without obligations to play at certain times, and with teams composed of mixed players (often from different clans and/or the clanless). Some of the advantages are:

  • Balanced teams. There's an increased chance of having balanced teams and thus more competitive games. Better than a noob stomp. How? Keep reading.
  • Custom maps. Anyone who'd take the game seriously enough to play PUG matches could be expected to have downloaded and installed various Galaxy Forge-made maps. Over time, certain maps would become accepted as standard clan match and PUG match maps (sometimes called "ladder maps").
  • Voice comm. Anyone who would PUG would also figure out how to use an easy-to-use voice comm program such as Teamspeak2. (No mic required, but it would at least be good to be able to listen to your teammates.)
  • More friends, tighter knit-community. Since you'll be chatting on Teamspeak and in an Internet Relay Chat (IRC) channel, it will be easier to make online friends.
  • Possibility of rejoining games where you drop.. I'm pretty sure that when Sins games are set up over Hamachi virtual private LAN, it's possible to rejoin a game if your connection has dropped.

Joe and I have been playing 5-on-5 capture-the-flag PUG matches for the original Unreal Tournament (1999) for years and it's kept that game alive. Puggers agree that PUG matches are more fun, much more intense, and more meaningful than just playing in public servers.

So how does this work? The games are set up in an IRC (Internet Relay Chat) channel. People sign up to play and a program called the pugbot monitors the number of people who want to play. When enough people have signed up to play (say 10 for a 5-on-5), two people become team captains and pick the other players in a 1-2-2-2-1 order, with the first captain choosing the first player and the second captain choosing the next two players. This keeps the teams balanced. (Wow! Balanced teams! What a concept!)

OK, so how do you do this?

First you need to learn how to use IRC, which is the best chatroom program on the Internet. The IRC has been around since at least 1994 (when I first logged on to it.) IRC is very easy to use once you know what you're doing. If you use Firefox, you can get the Chatzilla plugin :

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/16

Another good program is called mIRC:

http://www.mirc.com

Numerous other programs are available and all sorts of tutorials can be found on the 'Net.

We have an excellent pugbot (the ABot) and we've already established a channel at this address (as of Jan 17, 2009):

SERVER: irc.GameRadius.net
CHANNEL: #sins

OK, so how does pugging work?

To signal that you'd like to play and to join the match, you simply type:

.join

If you decide that you no longer want to be on the list, type:

.leave

To see who's signed up to play, you type .list and to see the last match that was played you type .last

To become a team captain, you'd type .captain

Players are then picked by their player number, such as .pick 5 (to pick player #5).

What does this look like?

!last
<@ABot> hax KHXMZ DjSatuRn uMBRo Bin necrougly toast Joe sober AnceriZ 11 mins 45 secs ago.

So Khxmz was the first pick, then the second captain picked toast and Joe, then the first captain picked DjSaturdn and umbro, then the second captain picked sober and Anceriz, and poor Bin ended up being last pick.

!list
<@ABot> Unreal Tournament CTF Puglist (4/10) 1) Motoko 2) Sinner 3) Dirty_Sanchez 4) WHIPperSNAPper | 6 spots remaining.

-----------

To make this happen, we need people to idle in the #sinspug channel until the channel has a critical mass of people. Also, we need clan support. We all have to pull together on this project and build a community for it. In time, folks will make custom maps that would be good for competition. We'd probably start with 3-on-3 games and then increase the number of players to 4-on-4 and even 5-on-5 once good maps for those numbers of players have been designed.

Once again, the reasons for doing this:

Balanced teams
Better maps/custom maps
Voice comm
Make friends
Possibility of rejoining when you lose connection

multiplayer
103,624 views 27 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Oh, one more thing. The free and easy-to-use Teamspeak2 voice comm program can be found at:

http://www.GoTeamspeak.com
+1 Loading…
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
very good idea. I'll be implimenting a PUG system into www.sinsladder.com and if you'd like to help me run it, let me know!
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Perhaps that would encourage clans to get involved. What exactly do you have in mind? Would there be a chatroom for setting up the games?
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Is there any way you could move the IRC channel to the irc.stardock.com server? It would be a lot easier to get people to idle there if they didn't have to join another server to do so.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
we can either keep it as IRC like you're using, or we can integrate a chatroom to the site, it'd be your show. The idea is to work together mostly. Ladders and tournaments is my thing, PUGs is yours, but we can combine the communities together and benefit everyone.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Is there any way you could move the IRC channel to the irc.stardock.com server? It would be a lot easier to get people to idle there if they didn't have to join another server to do so.


Possibly, but there are some technical issues. I've talked to the pugbot owner (it's quite a program that does all sorts of neat things, such as report the weather and give out sports scores upon request) and he listed a number of conditions for putting his program up on another IRC server, so I don't think it would work out. Also, you can't register an account with the Stardock IRC server nor can you own channels, which means we could never have channel ops (and thus enforceable rules) if it ever took off. I think folks who take the game seriously enough that they'd want to play PUGs would be willing to learn how to join a separate IRC server.

we can either keep it as IRC like you're using, or we can integrate a chatroom to the site, it'd be your show. The idea is to work together mostly. Ladders and tournaments is my thing, PUGs is yours, but we can combine the communities together and benefit everyone.


Thank you for offering to support us, Third Prophecy. Having a PUG match community and a clan community can really go hand-in-hand since an active PUG match and IRC channel is one way for clanners to get to know the clanless and other clanners and vice-versa and it might also encourage clans to set up their own IRC channels, improving live communication between clans. Also, clans could encourage their members to come play PUG matches, which in my experience is an excellent way to get clan match-like experience without actually playing a clan match that counts for something.

I think our best bet is to keep it on the IRC since that's what's worked very well in the past (for Unreal Tournament) and we already have a channel set up to go and the ABot is alread there. I could join your forum and then put up a post and you could sticky it. One thing you could do would be to set up a link or a Java chat applet that could take people to the pug channel.

This link will take people directly to the #sinspug channel via a Java applet:

http://www.gameradius.org/javachat/index.php?nick=YourName&channel=sinspug

All folks need to do is enter a name and then click
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Here's a good tutorial for how to access the GameRadius.net IRC server via that Java applet program. (Ignore the comment where the author mentions being able to connect to IRC via XFire, I think that was a mistake on Strych9's part.)

http://www.utclan-focr.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2402

(NOTE--you want to go to the #sinspug channel and not the #focr channel, which is a channel for that clan. If you ask about Sins in the #focr channel, I doubt anyone would know what you're talking about. I just wanted to provide a link to that since I like his tutorial.)

The GameRadius.net IRC server has a webpage with support information and a list of basic commands here:

http://www.GameRadius.net

To get a sense of just how many options the ABot (our pugbot) provides, you can find a list of ABot commands here:

http://www.ugamer.net/abot/
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
Just one more comment. This project is still in its infancy so we don't have any real protocols or rules yet, though it's always a good rule of thumb not to act like an insufferable arse.

If this were an FPS, the protocol might be: When enough people have signed up, two people type .captain (or get assigned randomly) and then pick the teams and then join the server at such-and-such server IP and here's the password.

Since Sins isn't server-based folks would be free to make their own arrangements for now. It would probably be easiest to play via ICO, but eventually folks could host via Hamachi private LAN (though the 1.1 patch might eliminate any advantage Hamachi would have).

A good rule would probably be to have the second captain (blue) choose the map since the first captain gets to choose the best available player in the draft. Alternatively, one convention might be to just play a large random map 3v3. I think that eventually folks would play balanced, symmetrical Galaxy Forge-made maps once custom competition maps become available, which, realistically, is probably essential for being able to play with larger numbers such as 5v5 (where you're more likely to get balanced teams). Since the game won't currently auto-download Galaxy Forge-made maps, folks would have to provide download links and then download and install them.

We're also going to need to designate a Teamspeak server. Commander Riker has already generously offered the community the use of his Teamspeak server but we should probably get his permission first to use it for the #Sinspug pugs.

If this really takes off I'll have a reason to learn Galaxy Forge and maybe I'll try to make some 5-v-5 competition maps.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Is there any way you could move the IRC channel to the irc.stardock.com server? It would be a lot easier to get people to idle there if they didn't have to join another server to do so.


I talked to some of the Stardock server admins... They didn't like the idea of having a bot on their server. Abot is ready to make the trip. I've already spoken to its creator. If we get started on irc.gameradius.org and get a bit of a following we could make a post on this forum. A large group of people might be able to convince them to allow Abot on stardock irc. They could create another channel and assign some active admins to enforce rules. The community could work together on creating some rules based on good sportsmanship, etc. Some obvious ones taken from the main channel i play another game at are :




Rule #1: Pugging Up: If you are randomly picked as a captain and cannot be found you risk losing your spot in the pug. If you are a captain, pick sensibly or ask for help. If you're new to the channel, ask for a reset. Do not excessively randpick or purposefully pick horrible teams.

Rule #4: Aliasing: Players should stick to their usual nickname, if you use an alternate nickname, you must state your usual name when asked. This also includes subs. Smurfing (impersonating other players) is not allowed.

Rule #6: Not Trying: If a player is obviously not trying in a pug, that player will be banned.

Rule #7: Leaving Games: If you must leave a game then you MUST find a sub before leaving, and also a legit reason for leaving, not because you don't like your team or the map being played.

Rule #11: Subbing: When you sub for a game, all rules apply to you - including those about leaving without a sub. Make sure you have the time to play to the end, or do not sub

Rule #9: Joining a pug for a player who is suspended will result in a 72 hour suspension and the originally suspended player's suspension time will be reset.

Bans are very rarely permanent. They are usually 12 hours to 24 hours.

Of course no rules/lengths of bans will be added/decided (including these ones) without the community agreeing on them.
Also, CenturionJixra and I wouldn't be the only admins. We'll ask some of the popular (well respected?) individuals from the community to take on the responsibility.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
Is sins ladder all based on fast games, if not and its just a suggestion but maybe have a normal section of the ladder? Im just checking it now to see if thats currently immplemented. Its just I played on normal and the MP game I was in only took 3 hours which is okay for many.

Great idea about the PUGS though!
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
if by fast you mean fast settings - you can agree to whatever you want, should there be no agreement between the two parties then you will use all fast. If you mean the map size, yes. The larger the map the more the late game imbalances start to crop up.

And jixra I already make maps with competition in mind, if someone needs something specific just get a hold of me and I probably already have a map that'll suit it. I have them all hosted as well, but there isn't enough interest to keep a thread about custom maps alive right now short of me bumping it inane amounts.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
If the main reason for pugs is balance teams , then we should try to encourage the "picking teams" mentality within ICO. Once 10 players have joined a game, 2 captains are picked (highest stats) and they then select players, rather then just do top 5 vs bottom 5 (which always end up stacked). All "picking" games should be tagged [PUG]5v5 , [PUG]4v4 etc. I love the general idea of trying to make pug games balanced tho , maybe we should start doing this whilst the IRC pug system is still in its infancy to encourage the mentality of balance rather then easy-peasy stacked noob stomps.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

 

<BUMP>

In a few recent skilled player games the players picked the teams PUG match style.  Before the teams are picked everyone changes their Team setting to a neutral team (say Team 6, pink).  Then two people become captains.  Team 1 for blue and Team 4 for red.  As people are drafted they switch to the team where they were picked.

The pick order for 4v4 has been 1-2-2-1-2-1 with the first captain having the first and last pick.  Another potential pick order is 1-2-2-1-1-2.  (I think we might be better off with this pick order.)

So anyway, now that some folks are trying to play PUG match style, would you guys have any interest in learning how to use Internet Relay Chat (IRC) and then setting games up in an IRC channel using a real pugbot?  IMHO, the chances of having balanced teams are better for 5v5 where the player draft order would be 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1.

At the moment #sinspug no longer has the pugbot but I'm sure we could get it back if enough people idled in that channel and showed interest in pugging.

------------------------------


What does this look like?

!last
<@ABot> hax KHXMZ DjSatuRn uMBRo Bin necrougly toast Joe sober AnceriZ 11 mins 45 secs ago.

So Khxmz was the first pick, then the second captain picked toast and Joe, then the first captain picked DjSaturdn and umbro, then the second captain picked sober and Anceriz, and poor Bin ended up being last pick.

!list
<@ABot> Unreal Tournament CTF Puglist (4/10) 1) Motoko 2) Sinner 3) Dirty_Sanchez 4) WHIPperSNAPper | 6 spots remaining.

 

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

 

<Bump>  Sure this is futile, but time for another bump since I've seens some more pug activity lately.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

This actually sounds like a good idea.  some questions come to mind for me.

1) Are beginner players welcome?

2) What the usual time most people are in the channel waiting to play? (please include timezone since I'm EST)

3) How long does a typical game last?

4) Any custom maps that I would need to download in order to participate?

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

IRC was created by Jarkko Oikarinen in late August 1988 to replace a program called MUT (MultiUser talk) on a BBS called OuluBox in Finland.

Oh dear - I guess one of the disadvantages of IRC is that you have a separate network for every community :D Aside the big ones, with tens of thousands of users simultaneously online.

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting drgnmstr44, reply 16
This actually sounds like a good idea.  some questions come to mind for me.

1) Are beginner players welcome?

Everyone would be welcome (though you could end up as last pick).

2) What the usual time most people are in the channel waiting to play? (please include timezone since I'm EST)

Right now no one is doing it.  I bumped this post since we've set up some pug matches manually on ICO.  Everyone joins Team 10 and then the two captains are Team 1 (blue) and Team 2 (red).  As they pick people for their team they switch to team 1 or 4.  I'd like to get this going on IRC but the huge road block is getting people to learn IRC.  IRC is old school now and few people who started using computers in the past few years know about it.

3) How long does a typical game last?

Same as a normal online Sins game but perhaps faster--I think people would be more likely to surrender or quit once it's obvious they're going to lose.

4) Any custom maps that I would need to download in order to participate?

We'd probably start with my maps and some of P5yy's maps.  For now it's a moot point since the scene isn't up and running yet.  I submitted an updated 4 pack (for v1.1) to Stardock a couple days ago but it hasn't been put up yet.

Maybe one night I'll put on an IRC clinic on ICO and show people how to get started with it.  I probably  have a post about it somewhere around here.

 

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting varis2000, reply 17

IRC was created by Jarkko Oikarinen in late August 1988 to replace a program called MUT (MultiUser talk) on a BBS called OuluBox in Finland.


Oh dear - I guess one of the disadvantages of IRC is that you have a separate network for every community Aside the big ones, with tens of thousands of users simultaneously online.

We'd use a community called irc.GameRadius.net in order to have access to an excellent pugbot program called the ABot that helps to organize the matches.  In the channel you type .join and it signs you up (and you can also .leave).  When it fills to 10 (for 5v5) two people type a command to become captains and then .pick the other players and the bot keeps track of who's been picked and who's available.

Not sure what channel name we'd use.  There is a #sinspug but someone else seems to be idling in it and I'm not sure I could take ownership and registration of it that way.  But hey, if enough people gather there and idle to where it could become viable, then a new channel could be created and we could get a pugbot.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

necro...

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

How about announcing PUG days - once a week everybody comes to IRC/whatever and signs up for the PUG?

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting varis2000, reply 21
How about announcing PUG days - once a week everybody comes to IRC/whatever and signs up for the PUG?

Now that is not a bad idea.  Unfortunately I don't think we'd find enough people yet who would be interested and who know how to use IRC, even though I could point them to an easy-to use script.  I'd also need to go find an unused PUG channel for another game where we could use the pugbot.

So, who would be interested in something like this?

Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

ive been PUGging call of duty 4, and the pugbot instead of assigning a captain to choose his team, the bot automatically pick who goes to what team. that would be alot better than having a person choose his members. also, its all random.

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

 

How does this COD4 pugging work?  I mean, how does the pugbot know who to put on what teams so that you get balanced teams?  Is this done within the COD4 game itself or is this at an IRC server?  (Just curious since I know nothing about COD4.)

The ABOT I was talking about can be set to choose random captains if no one captains up in a certain amount of time (say 1 minute after it fills).  What's neat is that it keeps track of where people are normally picked and tries to balance the skill of the randomly-chosen captains.

 

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

everything is done in the IRC server.

everyone types .join to join a pug, the pug is 5 v 5.  so when there are a total of 10 players signed up, the bot randomly divides them into 2 groups then gives them the info on what ventrilo server/channel theyre going to use. the vent channel has 2 sub channels for each team to use. everything is completely random. also the game is about teamwork, no matter how good u are if ur team isnt cooperating at all, ull end up losing. so it does not really matter if most of the players in a team is bad as long as they coordinate well, they will win.