Za H Za H

Save/Load Mechanism: Perhaps the Greatest Flaw of GalCiv

Save/Load Mechanism: Perhaps the Greatest Flaw of GalCiv

The current save/load mechanism of GalCiv is perhaps its greatest flaw. Not only does it add a layer of confusion and frustration to what is otherwise a fantastic game, it also limits strategic choices of the player and narrows his options considerably. This phenomenon stems from several bugs and questionable game designs. Some issues I would like to point out here are:

* The research progress indicator bug forces players to save and reload their game every turn if they wish to minimize waste.

* Sector influence is reset upon game loading, making it nearly impossible to pursue cultural conquest if you do not have hours of time to spend on each game session.

* Load times can increase to excruciating lengths towards the end game on larger maps. Although this may seem to be a result of more units and colonies, I suspect it is also a consequence of AI routines being processed upon loading a game. In other words, instead of just loading the ships and colonies to display them on the map, the game also re-calculates the strategy and tactics of each AI. The amount of time consumed by this task then increases exponentially as more ships and colonies must be taken into consideration.

* Diplomatic actions are more likely to occur upon game loading since the AI routines seem to be processed at this time. In fact, they are almost guaranteed to occur later in the game. This puts the player at a severe disadvantage since the AIs are very likely to trade behind his back every time the game loads. By simply saving and loading a game repeatedly and examining the “debug.err” file each time, I have been able to trigger over a dozen diplomatic transactions within one turn. The only reason I stopped counting at a dozen was because I had already spent half an hour of my time just saving and loading the game and I could not tolerate it anymore. If I had persevered, I have no doubt the technology gap between the AIs would have completely vanished, and the treasury of minor races would be cleaned out by extortions. The free tech trading between the AIs without regard to the value of the techs involved only serves to exacerbate this problem. How would you like to receive my “Majesty” tech for your “Overlord Technology”? Riiiight...

* To further aggravate the diplomatic problems arising from loading, the game actually saves some of the AI decisions triggered by loading without your consent upon exiting the game. If game loading prompted the Drengins to extort you, you will be stuck with that extortion attempt no matter how many times you reload the game. While this may seem like a neat feature to prevent cheesy players from reloading the game to avoid unpleasant diplomatic encounters, it also has the effect of penalizing casual players without large chunks of play time because these compulsory saves seem to ignore good events and only recall the bad ones. Therefore the more often you load, the more often you experience bad events. If it is a design choice to save AI decisions upon exiting a game in order to reduce future calculation time, we must have some consistency so the AI will remember to do both good and bad towards or against the player.

To summarize this post, the bulk of my discontent with GalCiv stems from:

Bug: Research progress indicator
Bug: Sector influence reset upon game loading
Design Flaw: Long load times that may be a result of AI routines being processed upon game loading
Design Flaw: Free trading between AI to a degree that resembles cheating
Design Flaw: Diplomatic actions being triggered by loading games
Design Flaw: Inconsistency in what information the game is saving without player consent
1,881 views 36 replies
Reply #26 Top
The cultural and diplo issues are very big deals to me. Their is very little more aggravating to me then the fact that this game *cannot* restore a game. When you load a 'saved game' it isn't the game you left. Between the diplo that triggers off, your culture being harmed, it just sucks. It encourages players that do not have enough time to play straight through to either play a smaller setting with less worlds, or just not play at all.

Star Dock has zero excuses for not being able to restore the game exactly as it was when you save the game and go to bed. We won't do it because it will 'Take longer' is a complete cop out. That sounds to me like 'My ego won't allow it' or 'I'm too embarrassed to admit that I cannot think of how to make it work.'.

Brad and his team have done a very excellent job of overall support on this game. I recognize that fact. I frequently say "thank you!" for it. But the saved games not restoring you to the point you were in when you saved and exitted is a serious detriment to people that have real lives, even if only occasionally, that play this game.

There are almost always ways to tweak matters that will improve efficency and cut cycles off of the processing. I'm sure that eventually, someone at Star Dock will think of it, if they try hard enough. And if not, we could form a team of players to play sounding board for SD on the issues. There seems to be a lot of proffesional code monkeys about that like to play this game, and some of us may have actually done some real work in that general area.

Right now, if I am unsure if I can get 4 or more hours to play uninterrupted of GalCiv, I end up finding other things to do. All because I'm just a touch slow, and on more complex turns, 4 hours can break down to be only 8 turns. It isn't worth bothering loading up GalCiv and only playing a few turns because as a player, I am PENALIZED each time I *LOAD* the same game. This issue needs addressing far more then any star base issue, IMAO.
Reply #27 Top
Another point to consider is playing single player games with multiple people where you pass the game to other players after so many turns. These types of games are called succession games and they are very popular in Civ circles and do wonders for understanding game mechanics.

If I play 10 turns, save the game and pass it to Fred and he loads it up and resets stats in the game then that really sucks and makes this type of communal play impossible.

~SDC~
Reply #28 Top
Bump

I'm trying the demo right now, but I don't think I'll buy the game if the save/load turns out to be a problem, because I can't play uninterrupted for long. Even if the save file has to be huge to save properly, or if the save takes a long time, that's still preferable to having a buggy save feature.
Reply #29 Top
NotDefault,

My advice to you is not to let this influence the opportunity for you to enjoy this game. The fact that this issue was only raised recently does seem to indicate that most players do not find this to be too significant a problem and it is by no means a game-breaker.
Reply #30 Top
NotDefault - as someone not as well endowed as RayChua :) let me second the notion that this isn't as big a deal as the thread may make it seem.

Relative to how good the game is otherwise, yes this is irritating and I wish Stardock would fix it.

However, it usually only hurts if you're just hanging on by a thread anyway, it sometimes actually helps (AIs decide to give you stuff when you reload!), and it's just not worth missing out on a great game over.
Reply #31 Top
If the save/load problems were really that big of a deal, we wouldn't be here wasting our time complaining about it. We'd be gone already, having bought a different game.

That's why games that suck don't breed a lot of complaints. People don't bother to complain, they just leave. So the fact that people are here complaining about details is a good sign for Stardock I think. ;)
Reply #32 Top
The influence thing is just a minor issue, really. Sure, it does cost me a little in that I have to take a minor setback toward the end of my games sometimes. (My stats say it all: culture wins mostly.) It is by no means a game killer. It would be great if it were fixed, but if someone laid bare all of Galciv's strengths and weaknesses on the table in front of me before I bought the game, then the influence needing to realign itself upon reload is just a minor irritation that does not reflect the time and dedication this design team has been taking to continue to support this game so vigorously.

From all the work that has been going on so far to update Galciv, I would say either this issue is so far down the problems list as to not be addressed yet or there is no way to fix it without overhauling the whole influence system. It would be nice to know which of the two it is, but I am not going to lose sleep over it and the team has earned some trust from me for service above and beyond gaming norms.
Reply #34 Top
Sure, it isn't a game killer, but it is still annoying.

Sure, the score might be a few points different. Maybe more, point is that it shouldn't be different. It is the same game - just more reloads.

A lot of things are `minor' and that's great, just trying to make it better.

They said save game reload times would be longer if they save the influence etc. How much longer? Is that so much of a big deal?
Reply #35 Top
#19 by Citizen Gezz - 5/7/2003 7:57:41 PM

My problem with research is the other way around (if I understood you folks right). When I reload, my techs take longer to be researched. Quite frustrating. But I'm confident in the future patches.
_______
#21 by Veteran Za H - 5/7/2003 8:17:24 PM
There's also a bug whereby research that is supposed to be completed in "1 Month" (i.e. the turn after the next) will actually be completed "Next Month". This appears most often when you have some astronomical research bonus from resources. The game doesn't seem to handle the calculations correctly and may underestimate your research investment.
_____
Actually it merely "Says" it's going to take longer. It doesn't. I checked it 4 times with a game. Before I saved it said next month. After reload It said 1 month but actually gave it to me the next month. There must be some thing in the indicator that "doesn't pick up progress or bonuses." the actual time, however, didn't change upon reload. This worked out several times for me. So as soon as you hit the turn button, it picks what ever it didn't upon reload right back up. So in effect, I lost nothing.

The influence thing takes 2-3 turns to pick back up. It's no biggie for me. I have mixed feelings score wise. I can't get through a game without saving. Too long. So it unfairly penalizes me. But on the other hand, this would tend to compensate for and penalize rightly, the player that saves, then reloads when a bad event or something like that happens (imo cheesy)

I did it on civ merely because of the invinceable phalanx killing 50 battleships and 20 Armor units cheat on the part of Civ's ai, I mean can you picture it. "Cmon Lads!! Our new ship armor piercing pike can go through their hull like a hot knife throug butter!!!! Now swim for it!!!." But there are no such bogus ai cheats here so that kind of cheesy behavior isn't warranted.

Reply #36 Top
On a quick machine, the load time difference wouldn't matter all that much. On a machine like mine, that meets the minimum but not the reccomended requirments, I'd likely be shut out if they changed it. Though my harddrive is quick and that's where the bottleneck probably is and that compensates a bit. But Obviously, any more huge of a load and I'm likely to run way long on loading.