embargo is too good for non random start maps

Embargo rusher take grate risk.

if he fails at it he will be set back for many minutes to come.


I see it as usual fault of the player itself who die to embargo. When i scout someone that is 4 jumps away from me building 2 civic research labs, well, he will die same to sova as to LRM rusher and he just deserve to die, period. End of discussion, case closed.

This said.

Internet is full of bad players, and embargo rush is usualy emplyed by the more advanced ones.

I dear you to rush someone with embargo who has assilant or LRM's.

Advents only hope against embarg is bombers, so advent gets the sharp end of the embargo rush ^__^

Well, it cuts down on the ability to grab anything high-tier as far as planets go. I was rushing for a ice planet and built two civ labs then got crushed by an Embargo player. It's not a bad strategy, but it puts a chilling effect on expansion which is sort of restricting, and there's no way to know in advance. It's essentially a 50/50 chance you'll get your ass kicked by Embargo in the average game.

I'd agree except that on the fixed maps like maelstorm the embargo rusher will be circling the planet a bit before the defender had researched LRMs. Then his economy is crashed, production is slowed etc and the embargo works fine. It takes a certain mass of LRMs to drive off the upgraded cap ship, at the five minute mark, that is not going to happen with a ship that requires research. Not to mention, the rusher will be sending his own LRM's using a non-crashed economy that is boosted by the embargo. My real complaint is not embargo as much as the effect of fixed maps where the homeworld is just 2-3 jumps away and with a known location. It allows the cap ship to hit the homeworld too early and the embargo is too strong on a player with only one planet.

in fixed maps, you can send scout to enemy planet asap and see him coming those 4 jumps away.

If you see sovan built, you got still time, build 2 hangar defenses, and your own sova if you so damn please.

This is not sim city in space, planets are secondary. Your mission is to piss into other layers cereals, not colonise planets. Planets, credits and all that are just means to an end, killing enemy.


Dont forget, that other player must spend 2750 credits on that sova to get it to lvl 3 and the embargo to lvl 2. Thats more than enought for you to build 2 hangar defenses, whitc in turn make your planet secure from more than just sova, while his sova and 2750 credits invested were futile and had to retreat or die.

Ok, hers things that countters sova rush

Akkans ion bolt.
Spacewhales grav torpedo.
Advent hangardefenses. (preferred)
Other races hangar defenses. (not as good as advents)
assilants, (easy to get 5 or more before sova apears)
LRM's (bit harder to get)
your own damn carrier, it dosent have to be always that kol or colonyship.

The problem is that a Sova rush can be countered but ties up your fleet at your home planet which means the other guy can lazily meander over to the planets near you and end up with the advantage while you're still trying to blow up his ships. If you've got an Akkan ion bolting the crap out of his Sova, both of you don't have their cap ships free but he has 60% of your income and the capability to blow up anything you make at a frigate factory (unlikely with all your income being stolen). That makes for a very difficult game.

yea, for sure there are defenses, but one hanger does not do it... there is really no scouting necessary, Homewords are not 4 jumps, more like 2-3 jumps away and even when you know it's coming it is a pain to effectively counter. One hanger does not do it. I tried that and it failed. hanger + cap + 8 disc ships could not take down the solvo before economy was crashed. Early in the game, cap ships can spend a lot of time running embargo before they have to flee to damage - counters are just too weak.

As to your hanger defense, remember, 2 hangers cost 3050 credits (more than your investment in upgrades and 2 hangers static defense is a crippler to economy in first five minutes of game whereas your carrier can go do other things) -- 750 for temple + 400 research hanger + 950 hanger 1 + 950 hanger 2. And the rusher can just port away after a couple minutes of embargo. Either way, he did his job of crippling the economy of the target.

And as the other poster mentioned, the defender is stuck doing nothing but defending while his economy is crashed. The idea of scouting is laughable, on most maps the homeworld is just 3 jumps away. To get the hangers etc up in time, you have to start the research etc ASAP due to research and build times, no time to scout.

Really, to me the best defense is just to TEK and rush back with your own carrier, how boring

Siddy, if the strategy was not so good you would not use it in virtually every game you play nor would i see someone on either team use it in virtually every game i play.

you scout to see what enemy is doing. It is VITAL and first ship you can push out is scout.
you can scout enemy planet in small maps before he can get his first capital out in most cases. that shuld give more than enought time to prepare.

lvl 3 sova cost 2750

rusher needs to eat alot of your planet income before he is on positive again.

if you dont scout your enemy, you deserve anything you get, preiod.

And yes ive been beated by players that anticipated my rush and yes i can own you as well with any other race.

For example, rushing 2 vasari carriers and doing circle jerkking yelds same results as they are night unkillable at the start due to the fact that they can repair eachother.

in maps where you are no more than 4 jumps away, ignoring military is fatal.

I think the killer thing really is that even with a level 1 embargo you can still steal all 100% of his income given enough time. It just keeps casting on top of itself. I think if they made it so level 1 could only grab 40% and level 2 only say 70% and it would take a level 3 to get all 100% that would help ALOT. its just not fair for a level 1 capital ship with only one upgrade to embargo to be able to sit and steal that much income. Just a thought.

Embargo rush? What exactly were you doing with your capital ship and where were your defensive structures/ships? Sovas are poorly armed and not very tough. I've never been embargo rushed, but I've done it to an opponent. It didn't last long because one of them countered with a Radiance and in another game the person countered with the Vasari version of the Marza (I forget its name). If you're off screwing around and fail to keep an eye on your assets, then you deserve to be embargo rushed.

Hi Brindle,

Embargo rush isn't too good. Learn to scout and if you see it coming then counter it with heavy military and a good military cap ship. The Sova is a terrible choice early game for anything but embargo and if you go heavy military you'll easily kill him/force him to retreat and then he'll be stuck with a nearly useless Sova.

PS I Sova rushed you or one of your allies on Foreign Invasion.

Ten minutes into the game? You're forced, with 18 logistics slots, to either get the "heavy military" (LRMs) or actually expand to planets that aren't asteroids. Both take two labs, and you're not going to have the $$$ to upgrade logistics and build the other labs.

I explained the capital ship issue as well. Even a LV1 Sova can come grab your income, and while you're fighting it you can get rushed on the one or two other planets you own. So you end up either with an asteroid and 0.3cred a second or back to your home planet with no other planets and then get bombed back to the stone age as the enemy's Sova runs around your planet evading your ships or just warps out.

Actually, i think we were on the same team. I've only actually been embargo rushed once, but i have seen it in 6 games in a row on forg invasion and maelstorm. Although you might have done it to a teammate, dont remember. On those maps the tactic is really good due to the prox of the enemy.

Note, title of thread, i'm not complaining about rushes, being rushed etc. Part of all RTS games. I am complaining about on fixed maps with close homewords, a few capital ship abilities seem overpowering (embargo and raze planet for instance)

Someone mentioned 10 minutes in game? On most 3v3 set maps it will be showing up at the 6 minute mark. Scouting? not sure how that helps when your only suggestion to defeat it is to rush the rusher with same tactic or build 2 hangers at capital. have you ever timed how long it take to first research and then build 2 hangers? longer than it takes the sovo to appear.

Build 'defenses'. well i knew siddy was coming, built 1 hanger and had 6 frig at homeworld, brought back my cap after clearing first astroid and still it was like a chicken trying to peck open a metal fence. the game mechanics make for very long fights and taking down a lvl 3 cap ship with 6 minutes worth of forces takes forever. And, the early investment in a hanger for capital cost as much as one upgrade of the cap ship.

To the guy who thinks his own cap ship and whatever frig he can pump in the first 6 minutes of the game can stop the rush, he is delusional. The rush isn't the problem. I could care less about being rushed at my Homeworld, My problem is embargo. It is that for around 3 minutes of gametime, the time it takes to drive the sova away your economy will be totally crashed. three minutes is 33% of the game at that point.

Lastly, no one except Siddy has given specific builds to counter and frankly, siddy's ideas do not cut it. He suggest three strategies, 1. mirror by building your own carrier cap ship and spam ships to drive off the attack 2. build 2 hangers 3. play vasari and spam assailents. Well option 1 cost the defender as many credits in worthless early game (defensive purposes) ships as the attacker is spending on the cap ship. The cap ship can just retreat, and will still probably get in 2 or so minutes of embargo before being driven away. Also, your probably buying suboptimal beam frigates that will get toasted later on by LRMs. Option 2 cost more credits (3050) to pull off than the attacker spent and you are left with static defenses and suboptimal research early (hangers) and option 3 means gimping yourself (in 1.03). Again, a good RTS game would allow a lower-cost counter to a rush. Not just 'spend the same amount on offense' defense that is being called for.

btw Siddy, i find that a marza pumped to lvl 3 with 2 in raze planet is another good rush. On close quarters maps you can reduce the enemy homeworld to 0 pop and crash their economy even more effectively. I've found that regardless of defenses you will have the time to reduce pop to 0 and retreat out. Without defenses, you can even snake the homeworld, something the sova can't do

The only problem with this rush is on EXTREMELY small maps where that first free capital ship is a nasty game ender.

See the option for maps that makes the first capital ship free? Turn that thing off.

Yea, or don't play on fixed, small maps. But I guess they have their place--short games with random people online are probably the bulk of MP games. Still, it's a shame, because the RT4X quality of Sins does not really appear in fixed, small maps. Playing Sins that way is basically Starcraft with spaceships.

I wasn't aware such an option existed..?

Radiance completely shuts down the Embargo rush. He will NEVER get his embargo off since he warps in with 0 mana (even with 2-3 jumps), and you burn him immediately (which also silences him). Just keep manaburning him and he's a fast useless carrier.

As vasari, phase missile assailants will rapidly kill the Sova, or you can burn off his mana with a Kortul, or phase him out with a Marauder.

As Tec, either Sova him yourself or gauss him with the Kol. He goes down pretty quickly if you go Kol/LRMs.

This is great..if you don't want to expand. Meanwhile, the other player is taking all the other planets.

Again, you prove your stupidity.

Radiance by ITSELF stops the Sova. So two cap ships are sitting in your base, neither one doing anything much to the other.

Your FLEET doesn't have to be there with it.

So please, THINK before you post.

Thank you Sins.

Double post, deleted.

My only problem with embargo is that it stacks, somehow I dont think this is working as intended.
If you have level 1 embargo you can still steal up to 100% of the planets income by being in the same gravity well long enough (A rather protracted period I must admit.)

As has been said any capship with a antimatter damage ability will make embargo impossible, for obvious reasons.

Have you thought about embargoing the other player as well if you think you're going to be embargoed in that game?

SPOILER: In the first 6-10 minutes of a game, you don't have much of a fleet beyond your capital ship for which to expand with. By tying up your capital ship at your home planet you're fatally limiting your expansion. Go troll somewhere else.

OK, let's try again.

THEIR SOVA IS IN YOUR HOME BASE. So whatever fleet THEY have, is the SAME AS THE ONE YOU HAVE. Like, seriously, are you a complete idiot?

For another alternate description:

ONE CAP SHIP FROM THEIR SIDE ON YOUR TERRITORY, ONE CAP SHIP ON YOUR SIDE IN THE SAME SPOT

HOW DOES THIS HAVE ANY IMPACT ON THE EXPANSION

YOU'RE A COMPLETE IDIOT

Hai? .. Embargo skill on a homeworld? Em... who or what are we embargoing from? homeworld from homeworld? As i under stand embargo is cuting off money and resorces flow of a planet form the rest of the empire ... emm so how DO you embargo a one-planet-empire?
oh well another little game mechanic thingie that just doesnt have a realistic feel to it.

in a team game if u show up at a guys homeworld 6 minutes into a game then you have no asteroid. It takes about 5 minutes to get asteroid, less if you got a colonizer cap. If all you have is your homeworld then you are useless to your team. It's 1 for 1. You take hte guy out but you yourself are stuck. Embargo only really works well if you get 2 asteroids first, and you get back up from your ally. In a case of 2v1, embargo will totally take the one guy getting double teamed out of the game.