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PC game piracy hurts us all

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PC game piracy hurts us all

from JoeUser Forums

At the end of the day, the people who "do stuff" will always have the advantage over the people who "don't do stuff".  Pirates are slowly motivating ever increasing levels of DRM and in time, I hate to say it, DRM is going to win.  That's because the people motivated to make the DRM work (the people who do stuff) greatly outnumber the motivation of the people who don't do stuff. 

One can easily picture a future in 5 years in which the telecoms, the PC makers, the OS makers, and the software makers have teamed up (and you only need any two of them to do so) to eliminate unauthorized usage of a given piece of IP. If you don't think it can be done, then you probably don't have much experience in writing software. The DRM and copy protection of today is piddly 1-party solutions. 

The DRM of tomorrow will involve DRM parternships where one piece of protect IP can key itself off another. Thus, if even one item on your system is pirated (whether it be cracked or not) it will get foiled as long as there is one item in the system that you use that isn't cracked (whether it be the OS or something in your hardware or whatever).  It will, as a practical matter, make piracy virtually impossible.

Computer games and video will likely be the first two targets because piracy of them is so rampant.  A pirated copy of something doesn't mean it's a lost sale. But piracy does cause lost sales.  Moreover, it's just incredibly frustrating to see people using the fruits of your labor as if they were somehow entitled to it.

I have long been and continue to be a big proponent of alternative ways to increase sales. I don't like piracy being blamed for the failure of a game because it tends to obscure more relevant issues which prevent us, as an industry, from improving what we do.  But at the same time, I don't like pirates trying to rationalize away their behavior because they do cost sales. I've seen people in our forums over the years boldly admit they're pirating our game but that they are willing to buy it if we add X or Y to it -- as if it's a negotiation. 

I don't like DRM.  But the pirates are ensuring that our future is going to be full of it because at the end of the day, the people who make stuff are going to protect themselves.  It's only a question of when and how intensive the DRM will get. And that's something only the pirates can change -- if you're using a pirated piece of software, either stop using it or buy it.

piracy torrents gaming
877,795 views 304 replies
Reply #26 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm proud of my purchases from stardock (GC1 Series+Expansions) + (GC2 Series + Expansions) several hundred dollars worth of stuff but worth it I mean, time goes by and you get your moneys worth quite a few times over.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
Piracy is the best way on Earth to ensure that people stop making things you enjoy. That's really all there is to it, support what you like or people will stop making things you like.


Amen, brother. Those who rationalize the piracy of software, etc., are simply being disingenuous, both to us and to themselves.
The Political Machine 2024
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm proud of my purchases from stardock (GC1 Series+Expansions) + (GC2 Series + Expansions) several hundred dollars worth of stuff but worth it I mean, time goes by and you get your moneys worth quite a few times over.


Me too. See, I have both GalCiv I and II, the expansions, as well as ObjectDock +, A WinCustomize subscription, and Object Desktop.

Dammit, I'm a good customer! ;P
Reply #29 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
stardock's software protection and service protocal is why i buy stardock programs
starforce and other copy protection idea's pushed me away, high priced copy protection allways shorts the customer on what they should have got for the money
spent, the case of more is less plays here, as in the case if it can be done

it will be undone by someone somewhere at sometime this day and age too much
money needed to be spent on copy protection/software protection that in truth makes for little room for a good Piece of well written software after the money is all spent
for protection...

it is a shame that the main stream/torrent mind set is i want it so there for it will be mine no matter the cost, with this mind set we hurt our selves in the long run, in time software company’s will shut down, yes the people who work for them will get hurt and then they will move on, and we will lose not only the software company

but the people who made what it was, yes some maybe stay in the game but in time
even hardcore Dev's must make a living and will move on to something that can sustain
life

stardock will continue to get my cash for the hard work they do and for the idea
that copy protection/software protection should be but a small part of the whole

my 2 cents on this issue :)
Reply #30 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Release demo version this will reduce piracy by factor.
And about "DRM going to win" ... I did not saw even one game with DRM that was not cracked in day or two.
So the people who not going to buy not going to buy anyway and people that do do buy.
Reply #31 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I just want to be sure no one reading this thread is lumping me in with the folks who "rastionalize piracy." For various reasons, I haven't pirated any software for years and I strongly believe that if you value a piece of software, you should fund the team that developed and maintains it. It is the right thing to do, and not because a misguided legal framework says that is so.

Despite the eloquence of (c) defenders such as Kryo in this thread, I have to point out that (c) is, at most, a few centuries old, and barely over two hundred if you are strict about your terms. The "no one can make a living creating intangible value without (c)" argument flies in the face of world art history.

The modern "IP" system is just how we're doing things at the moment. It is a pure social construction and should not be discussed in the same absolute terms that one might discuss the results of a physics experiment.

My greatest failure as would-be scholar of this subject is that I have done no quantitative research to back up the widespread anecodotal impression that (c) provides far greater financial benefit to corporations that hire creative talent than it provides to the talent. Basically, folks such as Brad who prosper directly from creating their own IP are the exceptions in the game, not the rule.
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top

Release demo version this will reduce piracy by factor. And about "DRM going to win" ... I did not saw even one game with DRM that was not cracked in day or two. So the people who not going to buy not going to buy anyway and people that do do buy.

I don't think you understand the type of future DRM I am describing.  Individualized DRM can be cracked in a few days.

But the scenario I discuss is where every program in the eco system checks every other program in the ecosystem whenever it's run and if a program doesn't respond, it disables it.  So you would end up having to crack every single thing on your system to bypass it.  And while some people would still do that, it's unlikely most would.  I don't want to run around looking for cracked versions of Instant Messenger, IE, etc. just so that I could run my cracked version of Game X. 

What I'm describing could be labeled PEER DRM.  As opposed to what we have today. And to legitimate owners, it would be absolutely invisible.  No monkeying with system files. No messing around with CDs in the drive.

Reply #33 from Stardock Forums Top

My greatest failure as would-be scholar of this subject is that I have done no quantitative research to back up the widespread anecodotal impression that (c) provides far greater financial benefit to corporations that hire creative talent than it provides to the talent. Basically, folks such as Brad who prosper directly from creating their own IP are the exceptions in the game, not the rule.

That's actually not true.  First, Stardock IS a corporation.  The games involve lots of immensely talented people working together.  Secondly, whether it's a doctor giving you medical advice (intangible value) or someone making a video game, society assigns value to it in an open market, not any group of elites. 

As long as their is demand for IP, it will be supplied. But in the long run, the people making the IP will have the upper hand over the pirates because they're more motivated OR the people making the IP will withold their talent from the groups most likely to steal from them -- action games on the PC are dying off being replaced by MMOs and casual games.

Sins of a Solar Empire is the #1 selling game right now because a) It's a good game but also b) It doesn't inconvenience legitimate owners with DVD copy protection and c) it was made for the PC demographic least likely to pirate games.

You won't see Stardock making action games any time soon for instance. Where DRM fails, the market responds. The groups who pirate simply lose out on games on their platform.

Reply #34 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Despite the eloquence of (c) defenders such as Kryo in this thread, I have to point out that (c) is, at most, a few centuries old, and barely over two hundred if you are strict about your terms. The "no one can make a living creating intangible value without (c)" argument flies in the face of world art history.


The need for potection has grown with the ease of saleable reproduction, where a copy has similar or equal value to the original. It was first devised when the printing press began to become common, and books could be reproduced in a professional way by people who had access to a press but were not paying the author. Making an identical copy of the mona lisa, or mass-copying literature by hand prior to that point was completely impractical, if even possible. Now though, one can make duplicates of binary data that are every bit (haha) as good as the originals, with literally zero effort.

Now I certainly don't agree with the massive extensions that have been placed upon copyright in the past century. However the initial period of 14 to 28 years established in 1790 is easily justifiable IMO, and would more than cover the lifetime of any particular piece of software.
Reply #35 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Personally I haven’t got a problem with people using DRM to try and protect their IP, provided that it doesn’t interfere with my legitimate use of my own computer, open it to security problems or cause damage to hardware like my DVD drive, (that noise my drive makes with the Crysis DVD in can not be good I don’t care what EA say)..

I agree Piracy is bad for everyone in the long run and would not pirate software, people have a right to expect to be paid for their work, if you won’t pay, don’t play people shouldn’t feel their entitled to steal.

That said I doubt statements like this will discourage people who feel they are entitled to steal from others, so yes I think the best we can hope for is DRM that does not damage hardware, cause issues with legitimate use of the consumers PC, or expose you to security problems as many modern DRM solutions do. I would have 0 problems with that.

I actually like solutions like Steam that don’t require me to find the CD every time I want to play.

Mind you I also think some developers and Publishers talk about Piracy being the issue with their game not selling on the PC when it’s not.

For Example Bioshock sold more copies on Console than it did on the PC. How about % of potential install base. After all to play Bioshock on PC you needed a reasonably modern PC with a graphics card fully supporting Shader model 3. Many people who had fairly good SM2 cards from ATI got locked out unnecessarily at the time of release because of this. In any case my guess would be that the potential customer base was much bigger for that game on consol than on PC.

The same logic only much more so applies to Crysis.

Also it is much harder to get you game to work well with the million different PC hardware and software combinations out there and if a game has issues at launch it’s going to loose sales.
Reply #36 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Okay ... obviously my comments here are not directed to Stardock - which I love. Maybe this doesn’t even apply to the discussion, but Brad mentioned music and movie piracy as well so here is my two cents.

I have read some of the comments and all I can say is - Gimme a BREAK people! The absolute hypocrisy with which big content engages in day to day practices and then tries to paint downloaders as the spawn of Satan is HILARIOUS. They have worked SO hard to make sure that everyone HATES them that lots of people feel they are getting exactly what they deserve. Want a concrete example? Do you know the old Bob and Doug McKenzy movie - 'Strange Brew'? It was pretty popular in its time. The two actors who came up with the characters made a deal with Hollywood - they would use their characters, write the movie and partially direct it for a straight 50-50 split of the profits. Sounds good right? Know what they made from it? ZERO! Cause Hollywood slipped the word NET profits, not GROSS profits. And I am supposed to feel SORRY for the industry when a 12 year old downloads ‘Transformers’?????? Hell even the director Terry Gilliam is so disgusted at their outright brigandry that he is quoted as saying (I am paraphrasing) "They [the movie industry] are all pretty much thieves so if you are going to download my stuff, at least make sure you get a good copy"

You might say "Its irrelevant whether Big Content is good or evil, stealing is stealing" and you might be right. However I am talking psychology here. Stealing apples from honest farmer Brown makes you feel like crap. Stealing apples from Darth Vader feels GOOD!

Dano

PS - Copyright infringement is NOT theft. That's not an opinion, that is a fact of law. If you wish to argue the moral equivalence of the two then you are going to be trudging through the philosophical swamps of 'Hypothetical-Land' - good luck with that!

PPS - I can't possibly envision the DRM that Brad is talking about. You would need all corporations (and possibly a few governments) to roll into one Giga-corporation (i.e. Big Brother) . Right now most corporations are too slow, stupid, greedy and provincial to come together like that (HD Format war anyone?). Besides, a system designed to 'sabotage itself' if it doesn't THINK everything is okay - sounds like a recipe for disaster. How many times does technology come up with false positives - and that is just RANDOM stuff, not brilliant human minds bent on tricking it. No, I believe piracy will stop (or even be contained) after the industry stops Viruses, Spam - and possibly Death ... i.e. never.
Reply #37 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Cause Hollywood slipped the word NET profits, not GROSS profits. And I am supposed to feel SORRY for the industry when a 12 year old downloads ‘Transformers’??????


So because some people failed to read a contract before signing it twenty-years with one company, you now feel justified illegally taking content from ANY company?
Reply #38 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think piracy also appeals to an infantile ego. "Hey, look what I got 4 free - I'm so clever". Most mature people share the idea that you pay for goods and services - that's the basis of an economy and what drives innovation.
Reply #39 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I am not talking about me - I don't download movies, I am talking about why a lot of people don't care about Big Content's woes.

If a corporation treats their artists and consumers as unwashed dogs, don't be surprised when they bite of your hand.
Reply #40 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I am not talking about me - I don't download movies, I am talking about why a lot of people don't care about Big Content's woes.


Indeed, I poorly read what you wrote and jumped to a conclusion. My apologies.
Reply #41 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I don't think you understand the type of future DRM I am describing. Individualized DRM can be cracked in a few days.
But the scenario I discuss is where every program in the eco system checks every other program in the ecosystem whenever it's run and if a program doesn't respond, it disables it. So you would end up having to crack every single thing on your system to bypass it. And while some people would still do that, it's unlikely most would. I don't want to run around looking for cracked versions of Instant Messenger, IE, etc. just so that I could run my cracked version of Game X.
What I'm describing could be labeled PEER DRM. As opposed to what we have today. And to legitimate owners, it would be absolutely invisible. No monkeying with system files. No messing around with CDs in the drive.


Get real, if the software will create too much problems for me I will just move to another software Linux or what ever.
Anyway if someone do not buy , he do not buy , if it's will not be cracked "worst" or "best" thing that could happen (depending on point of view) he will not play. Thats all so I do not see any point for publishers invest money in protection since it will not increase sales. Yes it will reduce piracy but it will not increase sales.



Reply #42 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Get real, if the software will create too much problems for me I will just move to another software Linux or what ever.Anyway if someone do not buy , he do not buy , if it's will not be cracked "worst" or "best" thing that could happen (depending on point of view) he will not play. Thats all so I do not see any point for publishers invest money in protection since it will not increase sales. Yes it will reduce piracy but it will not increase sales.

It wouldn't create any problems for legitimate buyers. It would be invisible.

Piracy isn't the big factor in low sales that people make it out to be. But it does cost sales.

The fact that peer DRM hasn't been seriously implemented already implies that at some level, publishers don't consider piracy THAT big of an issue. Because if it were, then you'd have peer DRM already.

Reply #43 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It's really hard to judge, I remember when I was young :) I used to download games (meaning pirate them) quite a lot simply because I had no money for them.
After I finished high school and started to work then I started to buy everything but then I encountered another negative experience - most of the games are crap and you can't return them.
So I still do "pirate" games if they have no demo, give it a trial for a day or two and then either delete it forever or buy it. Legally speaking it's really really wrong but what options I have ?

The other side of the coin is indeed prices, OK I can allow myself to buy $50 game from time to time without even noticing but what about let's say China where this $50 is month's salary ? No wander they pirate, you also wouldn't buy a game for let's say $20,000 right ?

And there is also issue of "promotional value" , remember Autocad for example ? About a decade ago it was one of the most popular engineering programs, look where they are today ... and that started when they implemented effective protection measures...
WarCraft is another side of the coin - the game is such huge success (in terms of money too) because it become very popular as pirated first.

So it can't be one simple solution, obviously people doing good work should be paid for it but DRM ... personally I believe it cost more then it "gives" (but I can't be really objective here since really good DRM will prevent my "demo" explorations :))
Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
Basically, piracy is about people who don't really know how to live in an economy. The economy needs people on board with it in order to function correctly. Not paying for goods and services is a one-way ticket to a damaged economy. Buying things pays people's salaries.
Reply #45 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Being the pessimistic guy I am I can very easily imagine the DRM enhancements you describe.

Many people have had great ideas in this direction, including the OS enforcing a white list of programs allowed to access files of known media content. This would mean, the OS does not grant access to your mp3s to any program not explicitely allowed by some instance not under your control. Your home written mp3 player could not play back the file - which might be a good idea since it maybe would have created an illegal copy in the computer's RAM, cache memory and - even worse - in a read cache embedded in the hard disc controller.

Your conscience cannot agree with that many copyright infringements could it.

IP protection is a superb example of good intentions gone haywire. Just consider software patents. How much did the license cost for 'Controlling an virtual entity by right clicking'? What's the price of moving units using the arrow keys?

Out of space, so I finish with ranting and hope the industry stops exagerating and hits the sweet spot in the middle.
Reply #46 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Basically, piracy is about people who don't really know how to live in an economy. The economy needs people on board with it in order to function correctly. Not paying for goods and services is a one-way ticket to a damaged economy. Buying things pays people's salaries.


You're confusing the legal economy with the overall economy. Huge sums are never on the books, be they mob money, top secret gov't budgets, or Aunt Tilly's profits from the flea market. But that money still "gets people paid," albeit often under horrific working conditions.

There never has been and likely never will be a single, "proper" economy. Remember that pirates are a valid competitor for World's Oldest Profession, and the other main contenders for that title are considered illegal, and in demand, almost everywhere. In an economy, things such as legal penalties are just one risk factor among many for an economic actor.

That's a longish, backwards way of getting to a copyright critique that often appeals to me: It belongs on the trash heap of laws whose enforcement costs outweigh their benefits to the average citizen.
Reply #47 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Get real, if the software will create too much problems for me I will just move to another software Linux or what ever.Anyway if someone do not buy , he do not buy , if it's will not be cracked "worst" or "best" thing that could happen (depending on point of view) he will not play. Thats all so I do not see any point for publishers invest money in protection since it will not increase sales. Yes it will reduce piracy but it will not increase sales.
It wouldn't create any problems for legitimate buyers. It would be invisible.
Piracy isn't the big factor in low sales that people make it out to be. But it does cost sales.
The fact that peer DRM hasn't been seriously implemented already implies that at some level, publishers don't consider piracy THAT big of an issue. Because if it were, then you'd have peer DRM already.


Color me skeptic on this. Given a choice between a program without peer DRM and one with peer DRM, I would buy the one without. I would probably even pay more for an inferior product to avoid it. I would go to the trouble of cracking every program on my system to avoid the inevitable danger of a cascading shutdown when one program goes haywire. I would actually buy fewer programs, if I had to go through this level of work...And I really don't buy that many now since I don't do very many things with my home system.

I've simply had too many issues with DRMed products in the past to trust that it will be implemented correctly going forward. There is a reason I have a legit license for more than one product written down and stored in my CD/DVD case of install disks at home and the cracked version actually installed on the PC...I don't usually do this, but sometimes the DRM goes bad or is troublesome and I can't steal what I already own...

Of course I am atypical and sometimes a bit of a nut! :)
Reply #48 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Chalk me up as another who will avoid most DRMd game.

I play mostly Open Source games, not only because I am cheap and I get guilty feelings just thinking about pira^H^H^H^H acquiring a game illegally, but mainly because I get as much fun playing them as I get playing commercial games. I am not ready to pay 50 bucks for a game I will only be able to play 10 hours before getting bored when I can grab an halfway finished game which will entertained me for >30 hours.

But if I am offered a 5 years old game for 10 bucks, which promise good (not necessarily great) gameplay, then I'm sold. I bought Evil Island (on TTG.net) for that and it was worth it. This market of discounted old games is mostly untapped right now, and I'm sure it isn't negligeable.

Piracy is not the only problem, company going after the hardcore market is probably as important. That market is way too saturated right now.
Reply #49 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm a average gamer and I prefer buying my games in a CD format. Right
now, I'm trying something new. I purchased a few games from Stardock.

Back to the topic .. DRM games have there good points and bad ones.
Right now most gamers have internet access and a lot have broadband
too. The software makers should force the the user to login to install
the software product. It should be a two part installation process.
A purchased CD with key or a downloaded installer with a key purchased
over the internet. The user would then start the installer from the CD or
run the software they just downloaded. The software then connects to
special servers so the user can register their key and have key parts
of the game downloaded from the internet. If you have a CD then some
data can be transfered from the CD.

I would like to see something like this released.
Reply #50 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm not sure I buy the idea that DRM is really going that direction. It's not a debate over whether it's theoretically possibly, of course it is. However, as more and more things are going open on computers and DRM is failing overall (every major music label has opened up to varying degrees now), I believe we're actually finally seeing large businesses learn to adapt to new market conditions.

Speaking in regards to DRM overall (not just gaming):

Piracy is obviously an issue, but outdated business models are just as large an issue. A modern business has two choices-

1) Invest greater and greater amounts of money in more complex DRM type systems and constantly run legal battles against consumers.

2) Adapt their business models to the digital landscape, taking full advantage of the strengths and weaknesses of this market.

Offhand I can think of different business models that people in all the industries combating this could consider, but no one wants to be the one's to experiment and risk the cushy status quo they've built. I'm not terribly surprised at the music and movie industries having issues with the realities of the new market, but it's fascinating to see the games industry have such trouble. I think it exploded too early compared to the changing economy (although technologically it was likely to happen as such) and on the whole they've fallen into the same traps as their older brothers in entertainment.