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Saints of a Solar Empire - A SoaSE Story *Book 2 Complete*

Saints of a Solar Empire - A SoaSE Story *Book 2 Complete*

Well, since there's no story section to the forums (hint hint), I've decided to post a little story set in the Sins universe here.  If popular, I'll continue it.  The story begins ten years into the TEC-Vasari War, just before the involvement of the Advent.  I've taken liberty with certain elements (which I can chok up to balance-needs for the actual game), and I hope you all enjoy the story.

 

Saints of a Solar Empire, Part 1: The Road to Hades

"Four Devastator class ships closing from astern, Captain!"

"The Carrigall reports total system failure!"

"Captain, we've reached point Alpha!"

"Release the fleet for staggered phase jump! All ships are authorized to withdraw as soon as they cross the well!" Captain Forscythe commanded. He tried not to think of the twenty-five hundred individuals who just became cosmic detris as the Kol-class battleship systems were overwhelmed by the Vasari phase missile barrage. Nor did the captain try to think of the gaping hole in his own ship where the flag bridge had once when the Schuegraf's shields were pierced with one of the alien's missile storms.

The Captain felt the hum as the anti-matter reactors came online, quickly charging the capacitor rings. Already, most of the frigates had escaped into phase space requiring less anti-matter and proportionately less time to charge to enter the over-layed dimension. Despite his orders, however, a squadron of Garda-class flak frigates remained at the well-limit, bleeding Vasari bomber and fighter squadrons as they tried to pounce on the fleeing fleet units who were without the benefit of fighter cover as the carriers fled into space.

And then Forscythe's ship slid over the the gravity well of the nexus star along with her sister ship and a surviving Marza-class dreadnought. The ships powered up, to Forscythe and their crews, an aganozingly long time to power up even though he and they knew that the ship engineer crews were cutting the safety margins to zero, if not less. They ran the risk of catastrophic failure--when matter met antimatter, explosion was an understating term--but the risk of termination far outweighed the minor possibility of something as mundane as system failure.

The flag captain slumped slightly against his shock frame, having too much stubborn discipline to openly sigh. Unlike most of the Eastern Reaches fleet, he was a veteran of combat having been a mere system defense captain ten years ago. However, he gave himself a moment to feel a flicker of pride at the way his own crew had performed.

No, they weren't vertans, but they were the product of the TEC's newest training programs--the first generation in memorable history to be fully trained to serve in a unified military force for the whole, not just isolated systems, and they performed admirably. There was no hesitation in the execution of their orders, and they knew their duty.

Unlike the first few fleets who had met the Vasari in battle, where discipline and courage were found in short supply.

Forscythe quickly pushed the thoughts aside. "Communications, tie in with CIC and report on the status of the rest of the fleet according to their last data codes. Anna," said Forscythe, addressing his exec, "status report."

The slender-framed terran girl, no more than twenty five, and appearing in her late teens thanks to advances in medical science, took a moment to compose herself. The running battle with the Vasari Task Force had run the entire crew ragged, and she took a moment to check the displa before turning to her captain.

"Shields are down to fourteen percent, but they held. Any damage we sustained was due in part to the ability of the Vasari missiles to bypass our shields a certain percentage of the time. Point defence is down to eighty percent standard efficiency, Beam Three was cut from the curcuit when a missile hit the starboard side, and Doctor Hannoi reports that we have suffered approximately two hundred dead with another three injured to varying degrees. We also suffered a direct hit to the flag bridge with one hundred percent casualties, including Vice Admiral House and Rear Admiral Jerry."

The captain winced internally. Admiral House had been a good man, with a fair amount of tactical and strategic mindedness, and his loss had caused unnecessary confusion during the battle. His loss also meant that command should have passed to the next slot in the chain of command. Unfortunately, the same hit that gouged the fleet flag deck had had to cut through the battlegroup command deck which housed the Admiral commanding the capital ship component of Task Force 3, ER-TECN.

Forscythe had taken a grave risk in not passing command. The next ranking officer had been Commodore Priev commanding the battlecruiser component, and he, Forscythe thought after reading the Commodore's dossier, was a coward. He would've ordered the fleet to break cohesion and run for it. Which might have been acceptable, had the Vasari not enough ships to break with them and still destroy them...

"Captain, I have your report," almost-whispered a voice from across the room. Lieutenant Focker was a slender man from a low-grav world much the same as Forscythe's exec. Focker's voice was not quiet out of fear, but out of habit from being able to talk clearly and concisely without slur, stutter, or a need to repeat.

"Let's hear it then, Andrew."

"Aye, sir. The Carrigall was lost with all hands, reducing our capital count to four--three Kol battleships including the Schuegraf and the Fraser. Our over-sized battlecruiser battlegroup is now an undersized one with the loss of Virgo, Kronus, Cancer, Greece, and Deneb. The Dunov suffered severe damage to her shield generators and anti-matter capacitors. She's still combat ready but only on standard reactors.."

The Lieutenant paused for a few moments before continuing. "Heavy Cruiser Squadron 657 and 435 have been lost, including the command cruiser. However, CruRon 414 and 512 are undamaged. Both squadrons of light carriers are unharmed, Captain! We've lost three fighter squadrons worth of craft, but our bomber squadrons are intact since they were never launched. According to last report, Commodore Cruze was attempting to reorganize the fighter squadrons."

Focker let out a soft sigh. "Unfortunately, sir, our screening elements were hit hard. All three scout frigate squadrons were lost--we think the Visari bombers were intentionally aiming for them to prevent us from stripping them out and sending them for reinforcements. None of our light frigates were destroyed, but once our LRMs opened fire, the Visari hit them hard. We're down to two squadrons of the Javelis ships, and two Garda squadrons."

Forscythe appeared calm as he tallied up the losses. One Kol battleship, five battlecruisers with another possible damaged beyond combat ability, ten heavy cruisers as well as their two command ships, eighteen scout frigates, and twenty four LRMs. Those fifty ships had cost the task force over twenty four thousand dead. Forscythe's squadron coherency was shot except in those rare cases that entire groups of ships were destroyed instead of one taken from squadron A and another from B.

"Anna, tell damage control to give top priority to shield generator repair and clearing the circuit to Beam Three. They can put it in manual if they must, but we're going to need it when we exit phase space. Andrew, what's the status on the Vasari Task Force?"

The Lieutenant continued without breaking a beat. "There are four Devastator class battleships and two Desolator class dreadnoughts. Our LRMs managed to destroy one of their Maurader class battlecruisers and we believe one was too damaged to continue. At the time of our phase out, it had not fired for two minutes. Their heavy cruiser squadrons are intact, but our LRMs traded missiles favorably to their Assailant heavy frigates and the Sentinel class defense frigates. We estimate that they only have two squadrons of the Sentinels and three of the Assailants. Unfortunately, their entire light frigate strength is intact at eight squadrons."

Forscythe remained thoughtful for a moment. Even without their technological advantage, the Vasari outnumbered TF3 and outmassed it around 3:2. With their tech advantage, Forscythe faced almost twice his own firepower.

Forscythe queued his pad. He knew of the system they were headed to but none of the details. Hmmm, a desert planet by the name of Hades. Not the most hopeful of names, and it was a neutral system which pocketed the Eastern Reaches, too stubborn or too far to accept Trade Order invitation or TEC might. Still, it was a poor system and they might slow the Vasari down. They would at least leave the task force alone, especially with an alien fleet inhabiting the system. At best, they would have enough forces to even the odds.

"Alright, Focker. Anna, you and the Lieutenant grab Beau, Shannon, and Jerome and meet me in the conference room. Let's brainstorm a few options for what's left of the fleet."

---

Neither the TEC Task Force nor the Vasari fleet, despite their more advanced technology, detected the nimble little craft under strict emissions control during their pitched battle, and by the time they reached a point where they could detect such a miniscule phase out with explosions and ECM playing havoc with their systems, no trace of the ship remained.

3,238,975 views 687 replies
Reply #76 Top
Dirty, dirty Advent. I think that I like them the best.

Excellent story. I'm looking forward to more.
Reply #77 Top
Whoops, double post.
Reply #78 Top
frickin sweeeeet!!! i'm glad i remembered about this story and had it book marked awesome dude keep it up if they ever want to do Game stories about SoaSE i hope someone important gets a link to this one
Reply #79 Top
Wow...Advent don't know how to let go of a grudge...

I think, even though they were exiled by them, the Trade Order kind of helped them out, because they allowed the Advent to form their own empire, instead of being enslaved or even killed.
Reply #80 Top
noobsauce94:

The Advent don't hold more or less of a grudge than most of the human race. Given present day parallels, there have been animosity (mostly between religious sects but sometimes cultural) that have lasted thousands of years. People killing other people for deeds done generations ago (if they were ever done at all) is not anything new.

The Trade Order didn't help the Advent, either. They found their planet, designated them debased and craven, and evicted them by force of arms. I'm sure they would have liked to have eliminated them, but, once again, nothing as nebulous as the Trade Order could randomly commit genocide on a peoples and hope to survive.

Though if you're right, Native Americans are awfully whiney. I mean, so what if Columbus brought diseases that wiped out a good 2-3 million of them. And so what if they were exploited, enslaved, or killed. And so what, if after all of that, their lands were stolen and they were forced onto reservations. Then forced onto other reservations. The Europeans then American Government were doing them a favor, after all.

If someone cuts off your legs, gives you a wheel chair, and tells you to go across the globe to live, would you be slightly irritated at them?

PS-I'm moving, so after this next post, I may or may not be able to update for some time. We're almost at the end of the second book, too.
Reply #81 Top
Saints of a Solar Empire Chapter 2, Part 5.2: The Price of Betrayal

Fleet Mistress Altima could barely believe it. She had read the traitor tactical manuals and the artificer's reports on their weapons and systems, but she still had been surprised at the devastation of the first wave of bombers. A quarter of their capital ships had been destroyed--and half the remaining ships were damaged, many of them severely.

Altima felt the elan, not only of herself or her ship, but that of the whole fleet swell, but she forced herself to remain calm. Her other ships had joined her, and she could almost fight on even numbers with the traitors--and even odds favored her. Still, the traitors came on, and they would most certainly take advantage of their slightly longer ranged weapons once they realized her forces couldn't respond in kind...in theory.

Still, there were other ways to deal with the traitors, and their anti-strikecraft capabilities had been decisively blunted. Yes, she thought, it was time to commit the other strikecraft.

---

It was a nightmare to Admiral Cambridge. Most of her crews were too inexperienced to face this unknown threat--and mere bombers had done so much damage out of proportion. How were they that fast?

Annette shook her head. Regardless of the circumstances, she had a duty to do, and she closed in. The enemy had to have lost most of their strikecraft in that one massive wave. Even if they had fighters left, her capital ships were mostly immune to them, and her frigates and cruisers had retreated into the capital ships' defensive envelope. The Hadeans would suffer heavily if they tried to go after them, and no race could go on losing pilots in such wholesale lots. The loss of experience alone would cripple them--and those had been ace pilots, Annette was sure of.

Her fleet was in even worse shape than it had appeared. Squadrons which had just been formed and only begun working together had been gutted--the bombers hadn't destroyed whole groups, they picked two or three out, crippled them, then moved on. What was left was a haggard mess of ships trying to huddle together for protection.

A sudden change in her plot caused her to look up.

"Report," she said cooly, turning to Commander Winthrow.

"The enemy appears to have launched another wave of strikecraft, this time from the mobile forces." She paused for a moment, listening to a report in her ear piece. "CIC makes it fourty-five-plus squadrons. Judging by their greater speed, they must be fighters...CIC is confident in this, ma'am."

The admiral nodded and assimilated the information. There wasn't much she could do about the fighter craft roaring down her throat. Her fleet was shaken, yes, but the shock value of the unexpected speed of the enemy strikecraft had worn off, somewhat. While they didn't have any idea how to counter it, at least they wouldn't be shocked once more.

The flagship shook as the fleet went into evasive maneuvers. Ships that size couldn't move very fast, but every little bit helped as the enemy fighters intercepted her fleet. Annette almost sighed in relief--these craft were little more armed than with internal laser that, while more powerful than terran fighter weaponry, were not enough to be decisive.

Still, her frigates were about to suffer heavily, though they wouldn't go alone.

---

Altima wasn't--quite--disappointed with her fighters' results. After all, they were designed to take out other strikecraft and maybe frigates but nothing heavier. Still, her fighters had slaughtered half of the remaining enemy small craft and damaged or destroyed at least fifteen frigates.

All in all, it was acceptable. The fighters weren't meant to do anything but indicate how much fight the traitors had left. Already the Choir was sensing panic and fear overwhelming anger and vengeance. Soon, they would break.

Sooner than they think, mused Altima as she ordered a signal to be given.

---

Communication between starships had always been limited to the speed of light. They were more sophisticated, of course, but signals were basically in the range of radio communication and lasers. This limit, among other things, affected military operations.

It was, of course, possible to communicate between forces in-system, as long as you didn't mind a communication lag that ranged from a few seconds to several hours, and star systems were large places. An enemy exercising even the minimum of emissions control could hide just about anywhere outside a gravity well, so usually the practice was the garrison planets and other strategic points as an attack could come from anywhere, at any time.

This meant that the TEC and Vasari prefered to keep their forces concentrated. Not only did it reduce the communications lag to almost nil, it discouraged wide-spread, far-flung maneuvers that could be destroyed in detail if something wrong happened.

However, the Hadeans were not limited to such physical restrictions in their communications. They could, effectively, communicate instantly in-system, given certain circumstances.

So it was that the fleet little seeker vessel that Captain Depp had detected sent out such a signal, and Third War Mistress Lenus with the rest of Third Fleet received the summon. Pausing only long enough to sent signals to the detachments of First and Second Fleet, she ordered Third Fleet into action, and what translated to millions of kilometers, far outside of sensor range, took less than a second of travel by phase space.

Admiral Toda's carrier group experienced something relatively improbable in space combat. Given the size and breadth of a planet's gravity well, it should be nearly impossible for one fleet to stumble over another one at the edge of a gravity well, even then it should be a total surprised for their opponent. Everyone had heard rumors of such encounters happening, however, in a world ruled by Murphy's Law.

So it was that Third Fleet phased out at what passed for knife-blade range in space combat, and the information fed to them through their seekers was plugged into their computers. It took less than a minute for the energy from the phase transfer to bleed off and electronic brains to stabilize, lock onto the fragile carriers, and fire.

Half of Third Fleet's beams were firing at nothing more than expanding plasma that was once Admiral Toda, Captain Depp, and over fifty thousand other men and women.

---

Admiral Cambridge tried not to be sick as the light speed sensors reported the death of her carrier element by a far that dwarfed her own, even before her losses--scores of capital ships and enough light combatants to cause her tracking departments fits, and that wasn't even counting the original force.

"We can't stop them," said Annette in almost a whisper.

"Sir?" asked Commander Winthrow.

"Raise Commodore Hale and--"

"He's dead, sir," corrected Winthrow softly. "His ship took a kamikaze hit to the flag bridge."

Annette nodded absently then opened a channel to her flag captain. "Broadcast this message to all surviving officers and ships. 'General withdraw ordered. Form up on flagship. Transfer all nonessential personell to least damaged Akkan-class battlecruisers. End message.' Come to bear eighty-seven degrees on the plane and best speed to the hyper wall."

Captain Ellis nodded grimly, having an idea of what his admiral planned for the maimed fleet. "Yes, Admiral," he said softly before Cambridge closed the circuit.

"Admiral, I--" started Winthrow before Cambridge raised a hand.

"Emily, you have a shuttle to catch."

The commander paused. It could be construed as an order, and a less spirited person may have simply been excited enough to be away from a Kol battleship which had to be a main objective for the enemies--so far, almost none of the Akkans had suffered serious damage, after all. Still, Emily had been the admiral's chief of staff for years.

"That's an order," stated Annette firmly, with a look that made Emily shrink. Within twenty minutes, Commander Winthrow and the rest of the admiral's staff were on a cutter as most of the rest of the fleet discharged non-essential personnel into the large Akkan battlecruisers.

---

Neither War Mistress Lenus nor Fleet Mistress Altima were surprised when the desecrators changed course. It would have been nice if they had continued on, but even the most junior officer knew that keeping one's command intact was a top priority against an unknown foe.

So, long-prepared contingency orders went out, and their forces released their faster units--beam-armed battlecruisers and heavy frigates, escort anti-missile/fighter frigates, and the fast, close-ranged hunter-killer Disciple-class frigates.

Following on the heels of the battlecruisers and frigates were the rest of the battle line--heavily armed and armored battleships and almost as equally armed and just as large assault carriers.

---

Annette had never expected the course change to succeed in allowing her fleet to escape. It would have been nice, but the amount of metal in the oncoming battlecruisers was enough to ruin what was left of her fleet--and with the battleships and damage to slow her ships down, they would intercept her ships before she was free of the gravity well.

"Captain Ellis," she said, opening a comm channel. "Put me through to the rest of the fleet."

"Yes, Admiral," he said briskly and a few moments later Annette heard the chime of an all-ships' broadcast.

"We have been betrayed. We came for peace and the balancing of scales, and we have been attacked and gutted by these honorless dogs. What ever reason they have for killing our men and women is irrelevant--they will pay.

"However, in order to pay, Naeve and the rest of the TECN have to be informed. As it stands now, the enemy will intercept us well short of the phase wall." Annette paused for a moment and took a relaxing breath. Must appear calm and in control, she told herself.

"As such, only the Akkan-class battlecruisers and the least damaged Dunov battlecruisers will be leaving. The rest of the ships will turn on this enemy and buy the time for the rest to escape." Annette waited, as if she could feel the anger and fear of her fleet. She had just committed the bulk of her forces to a suicide mission. "Our light combatants are too short of reactor mass, and the battleships too slow and damaged. As such, the only ships capable of escaping are the battlecruisers who are unslowed by battle damage. You have your orders. Cambridge out."

Annette felt anger and hatred to those murderers out there--those Hadean monsters. She thought about all those who had died today and those who were about to die. She half-expected some pissant captain or commodore to raise her on the comm, to denounce her or refuse to follow the order. However, no call came, and Annette felt a wave of pride over her people. Unexperienced, shaken, and battered, but they were officers of the TECN, and every man and woman in the gold-lined uniforms knew their duty.

"Captain Ellis, would you raise Rear Admiral Jackson and patch him to my terminal."

Annette's screen darkened and was soon replaced by a rather attractive blue-eyed, blonde haired woman. The sweet woman whose slight accent descended from the southern part of North America was replaced by a slightly hardened rear admiral with blood staining her tunic and a smudge lined her cheek. Annette hated to see Andrea in such a state, but she had no choice. Admiral Jackson was in command of the Akkan battlecruisers.

"Rear Admiral Jackson, every ship in the fleet will begin uploading their data to your ships before they depart. Make sure the TEC knows what happened here."

Andrea nodded, almost unwilling to speak before military training kicked in. "Yes, Admiral....good luck."

The fleet admiral felt a tug at the corner of her mouth. "Thank you, Admiral. Get my people home safe. God bless."

Fleet Admiral Annette Cambridge cut the circuit.

---

The oncoming Hadean battlecruisers and frigates slowed once the terran ships turned and began slowly advancing towards the ships. Even after suffering severe damage, battleships were still heavy metal, and nothing smaller than a battleship truly wished to tangle with one.

So it was that Rear Admiral Jackson watched aboard her Akkan battlecruiser as the advance elements were gathered up by the more numerous and dangerous battleship-range vessels. As her vessels--the last few ships of the entire White Fleet--crossed the hyper wall, the last thing she saw before the ships ranged each other was those twelve massive strikecraft platforms orbiting Hades launch another strike, equally massive as the one that crippled White Fleet.
Reply #83 Top
Continuously excellent.
Reply #84 Top
dude i must have more lol keep it up hope you get set up at your new place soon enough this stuff is awesome
Reply #85 Top
Sticky this please. The writing quality here is excellent and adds depth and nuance to the SoaSE universe.

I keep having to hunt for this thread in the General forum in order to check for any updates and in the absence of a Fiction Forum it would be great if this could be stickied.
Reply #87 Top
I hope you have more!
Reply #88 Top
Writing: 4/5

Science: 0/5

Characters: 5/5

Total: 9/15

Some spelling mistakes and a few sentences that didn't flow well.

Science: Fighters are useless in Space, not enough fuel for them and weak armament. Bombers make more sense provided the ship they are attacking has had its shield brought down and they aim for soft targets, they are still a brain bug though.

Capital Ships will actually be faster than all the other ships as they have bigger engines which generate more thrust and carry more fuel with which to accelerate. Frigates can maneuver better on the Z-axis and show the flag, but in a big fight between fleets they best be else where when the Capital Ships duke it out as not only are the Capital Ships bigger, they are exponentially stronger simply because they have to withstand far greater stresses when accelerating.

You aren't the first and won't be the last to make these science mistakes.

Reply #89 Top
I think you got it all wrong. Take into consideration that this is a fiction novel, and that their technology is thousands of years beyond ours. fighters are useful -they are meant to defend against Fighters/Bombers before they reach either bombing range of your home fleet or reach attacking range of your bomber group. By the time we develop strike craft of our own, we should be able to provide some viable fuel source to last for long dogfights and sorties. also, fighters would be equipped with some type of anti-strike craft weaponrey, like a rapid-firing railgun or Space torpedoes. It is true, though, that they would be of little use to anti-ship attack unless outfitted with such weaponrey, but that would be a multirole strike craft. I agree with the bomber thing, and that is exactly what they would do - wait untill they see an opening in their shields and hit vital areas of the ship.

As for the capital ship, i believe you may be wrong with the capital ship being faster than all the others. it all has to do with newton's third law (hopefully i do not have to explain it), therefore a a small, light frigate needs less energy to move forward and to accelerate than a large, two kilometer long behemoth, although at a certain point, if the engine is large enough and can still fit in the Capital ship, or it can even emit enough energy, the capital ship would be able to move faster than most ships. but then think how long it would take to slow down the thing, and how much fuel would be wasted. it is good to go with a slow moving flagship than a rampaging bull. The only stresses the ship itself has to face is stopping and going - no friction in space, and inertia only applies to loose objects that are not welded down inside, but a good artificial gravity and pumping systems for any liquids should solve that.

still, we will not be sure what is right and what rules apply to space - and more importantly space combat - unless we prove it in real space, away from any body that emits it's own natural gravity. That will be years from now, so we entrust science and science fiction to answer these questions...

by the way, great story, 8/10! I hope you get online soon!
 :CONGRAT: 
Reply #90 Top
I think you got it all wrong. Take into consideration that this is a fiction novel, and that their technology is thousands of years beyond ours.


Well yeah, but it still follows basic science. Its part of Suspension of Belief.

fighters are useful -they are meant to defend against Fighters/Bombers before they reach either bombing range of your home fleet or reach attacking range of your bomber group.


The devil is in the details, my friend. In an atmosphere, that would be correct, in the vacuum of space, it isn't. Here is why, the bigger ships with their bigger engines can maintain vastly greater acceleration and velocity, and thus out run them as their is no drag.

The fighter in order to make an intercept must use a planet or moon to slingshot him at a faster speed, even then it won't be enough. The fighters therefore need to box their targets in so they can intercept, even then the big ships just by turning one degree can simply avoid the intercept.

By the time we develop strike craft of our own, we should be able to provide some viable fuel source to last for long dogfights and sorties.


The problem is thrust, not fuel then. A bigger ship generates more thrust, more angular velocity, and can accelerate faster.

also, fighters would be equipped with some type of anti-strike craft weaponrey, like a rapid-firing railgun or Space torpedoes. It is true, though, that they would be of little use to anti-ship attack unless outfitted with such weaponrey, but that would be a multirole strike craft.


Could be useful against Frigates, but not against capital ships more than a kilometer long.

Before I begin, I must explain what stress is. Mechanical stress is expressed in units of force divided by area, and it is conceptualized as the load acting normal to a plane surface, divided by the area of that plane surface.



The diagram shows a bar which is being stretched. We call this "tensile stress", and it's the simplest possible situation in stress analysis. The little arrows show the force acting on the bar, and of course, it's spread out over the entire area of the bar's cross-section. This cross-sectional area is often referred to as the "load-bearing area". For example, if the load-bearing area is 5 m² and the bar is supporting a 100,000 ton mass against the force of gravity, then the stress would be roughly 2E8 N/m², or 200 MPa (structural steel yields at ~260 MPa, in case you're wondering).

The critical factor is the load-bearing area. The length of the bar doesn't help at all, and you can verify this with an experiment. Get a length of good high-quality rope, tie one end to a solid post, and try to pull on the other end until it breaks. Does it matter how long the rope is? No. You could cut a 100 foot length and it would be no stronger than a 1 foot length. So the moral of this story is that the load-bearing capacity of our bar is affected by changes in width or height, but not by changes in length. If you scale the bar up by a factor of 100, then its volume will increase by a factor of 1 million but its load-bearing area will only increase by a factor of 10,000.

Why does size matter then? Size matters because of gravity and acceleration. If you're building an immobile space station in a zero-gravity environment (such as Mir), size doesn't matter. But if you're building a ship, then things become a whole lot more complicated. When that ship accelerates or enters the gravity well of a planet, the resulting forces will be proportional to its mass. Its mass, in turn, is proportional to its volume.

It doesn't take a genius to see the problem here: when you scale something up, the mass increases faster than the area. Mass will define load, and area will define load-bearing ability. If load increases faster than load-bearing ability, then we have a problem. For example, if you scale up a building by a factor of 10, it will get 1000 times heavier but it will only get 100 times stronger.

This problem isn't restricted to stress analysis; technological devices which apply force also don't scale with volume. For example, a hydraulic cylinder's maximum force is dependent on the piston area, not its volume. If you take a hydraulic cylinder and precisely scale it up 10 times in every direction, it will be 1000 times more massive but it will only exert 100 times more force. The same is true of biological systems such as muscles, for which the predominant strength determinant is cross-sectional area.

In general, if you scale up an object, its strength will increase with the square of the size multiplier, but its mass will increase with the cube of the size multiplier. That's why Galileo knew, many centuries ago, that there's a "proper size" for everything. You can't scale something up without radically altering the design, and when the size of an object reaches extreme levels, it becomes infeasible regardless of design.

Case Study: The Executor

Executor-Class Star Dreadnoughts are good examples of the engineering difficulties posed by large-scale starship construction. Let's look at the specs:

Length: 17.6 km
Width: ~6.5 km
Thickness: ~1.7 km

The Executor decelerated at a rate of roughly 30 km/s² in ROTJ along with the rest of the fleet, so what kind of force would be required? If we assume 10% solidity and iron construction, the ship's mass would be well over 35 billion tons. In order to accelerate that much metal at 30 km/s², its 13 engines would have to generate around 8E16 N apiece. Each engine is 300 meters wide, so the outlet pressure would be around 1.13 TPa. An engine of such outlet pressure, scaled down to a pair of 10x10 meter squares and attached to the back of, oh, say, a 4.5 million ton starship would accelerate it at more than 50,000 m/s².

Even if we ignore the engines and look only at the structure of the ship itself, it would have to be enormously strong in order to simply survive this rate of acceleration. Let's take its cross-sectional area at the thickest point to be roughly 5.5 million m². If the ship is 10% solid, this would mean there is roughly 550,000 m² of metal which has to withstand a total of more than 1E18 N of force, for a resultant stress in excess of 1.8 TPa (nearly 7000 times the yield stress of structural steel). In fact, even if it were a solid block of metal, it would still have to be made out of a material which is 700 times stronger than structural steel in order to survive the acceleration without permanent deformation!

We also know that the Executor can survive the gravity of a planet even when it's powered down, because an Executor-class ship was buried for years under a mountain range on Coruscant. However, the stresses imposed on its frame from its high sublight acceleration would be much higher than the stresses imposed by the weight of a mountain range, so the ship's ability to survive its own engine output is still its most impressive attribute (particularly during hard turns such as the one in ROTJ, which would impose bending moments on the ship's frame). It must be constructed out of impossibly strong materials in order to hold it together.

(special thanks to Micheal Wong for explaining to me everything involved in space combat)

As for the capital ship, i believe you may be wrong with the capital ship being faster than all the others. it all has to do with newton's third law (hopefully i do not have to explain it), therefore a a small, light frigate needs less energy to move forward and to accelerate than a large, two kilometer long behemoth, although at a certain point, if the engine is large enough and can still fit in the Capital ship, or it can even emit enough energy, the capital ship would be able to move faster than most ships. but then think how long it would take to slow down the thing, and how much fuel would be wasted.


Gravity isn't an issue in space, and its a very weak force even on planetary surfaces. Electromagnetism is the ruling force in space and the bigger thrust of the Captal ship's engines win out.

it is good to go with a slow moving flagship than a rampaging bull. The only stresses the ship itself has to face is stopping and going - no friction in space, and inertia only applies to loose objects that are not welded down inside, but a good artificial gravity and pumping systems for any liquids should solve that.still, we will not be sure what is right and what rules apply to space - and more importantly space combat - unless we prove it in real space, away from any body that emits it's own natural gravity. That will be years from now, so we entrust science and science fiction to answer these questions...by the way, great story, 8/10! I hope you get online soon!  


Real scientists and engineers already know what space combat will be like. A cursory google search will show them up. Start with Micheal Wong's excellent Stardestroyer.net or http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html#nuke for excellent information.



Reply #91 Top
Fighters are useless in Space, not enough fuel for them and weak armament.


It depends on the setting, and if 'fighters' would even be using a consumable fuel such as fossil fuels or plasma. As for the weak armament, I suppose. Unless we're talking nuclear-type weapons (which, obviously, aren't as powerful in space thanks to lack of atmosphere, and such) or, if you want to get fancy, anti-matter weaponry. Weak armament is a matter of perspective. Artillery that could fire impressive shells in WW2 could fire nuclear shells twenty years later.


Bombers make more sense provided the ship they are attacking has had its shield brought down and they aim for soft targets, they are still a brain bug though.

Why are bombers better? Because their bigger? That may or may not be a blessing, considering what you use that extra room for.

Strikecraft in most scifi settings rely on saturation effects in order to be efficient. This can range to being a first strike weapon across stellar distances to 'soften up' enemies to riding in while the battlelines clash, picking out soft targets, or protecting capital ships from others.


Capital Ships will actually be faster than all the other ships as they have bigger engines which generate more thrust and carry more fuel with which to accelerate.

Except that the human body can only take so much acceleration, and a ship would be limited to its maximum velocity by the light speed limit definitely. Below that, it'd probably be limited to its particle shielding and other variables.

Also, capital ships would mass larger so would require larger amounts of energy to accelerate. In theory, a six million tonne ship and a sixty tonne ship would move at the same 'maximum' speed, but a sixty tonne ship, assuming adequate 'fuel' would reach that speed sooner, assuming that there's no limit imposed on the frail human meat frame.


Frigates can maneuver better on the Z-axis and show the flag, but in a big fight between fleets they best be else where when the Capital Ships duke it out as not only are the Capital Ships bigger, they are exponentially stronger simply because they have to withstand far greater stresses when accelerating.You aren't the first and won't be the last to make these science mistakes.


Capital ships also have to have their life support systems, armor, hull integrity, and so on scaled up (sometimes disproportionately) compared to 'lighter' ships. Obviously, life support in space in quite important, and warships would clearly carry plenty more than necessary. You could easily double the mass of a vessel withonly a 60% actual increase in weaponry.

However, capital ships are built (and used) BECAUSE they are bigger and stronger. There are plenty of other considerations when used in fleet tactics which I'll not go into right now.

Point is, my story isn't based on science. It's based on the game, Sins of a Solar Empire, in which I *try* to explain its inconsistancies, such as dozens of habitable planets in a single system. Fact is, in Sins, ships DON'T accelerate and decelerate the way they would in space. Either they have an incredibly crappy reason for this, or there's another explanation. Likewise, they DO use fighters and bombers, and I've tried to explain the differences in effectiveness by introducing external ordinance--fighters can be equipped with 'missiles' for dogfighting or (light) anti-ship weaponry. Obviously, they would only get one shot.

Likewise, frigates ARE faster than capital ships, even at their maximum, which, again, suggests it's not a problem with particle shielding or the ability to withstand high acceleration.

Lastly, there has never been space combat, and we have no idea the sort of technology which will be involved. It's entirely possible that interstellar may be limited--totally--to sub-light travel, which would turn space combat into a moot point. If I want to say that there's a magic drive system (and magic it would be because of our limited understanding of it) which allows near-instant acceleration up to a magic number based on the mass of what's being accelerated, then, as the author, I can say that, and you can't tell me it's impossible because, well, it's magic.

PS-I also think strikecraft or other parasite warships in space in practice, would be totally worthless, but it's in Sins, so...
Reply #92 Top
Saints of a Solar Empire Chapter 2, Part 6: Ground Pounders

Captain Donners watched his screen as the massive merchant tradeship approached the phase limit. The Gregor system was wealthy and populous enough to require a fleet presence to disuade would-be raiders (who had annoyingly persisted, despite the efforts of the TEC and Hannover, Gregor's chief planet). As such, Gregor's standard squadron of heavy cruisers and light frigates, under the command of Commodore Hewes, usually escorted the merchant vessels from orbit to the phase limit and occasionally to the nexus star, and the new SO, Captain Pierce, saw no reason to half the practice.

Unfortunately, with the White Fleet vacuuming system pickets left and right, Captain Pierce only had a division of heavy cruisers and light frigates in which to maintain system security.

It made a kind of sense. Orbital traffic was bad enough that no one could tell what ships were warships and what ships weren't, so anyone in the fringes of the grav well would only detect the far off elementals escorting tradeships, and, if they'd known anything about the system, assume that the rest of its defense group was in orbit, ready to respond.

While Pierce's plan had merit, Donners thought it was somewhat flawed. Though Pierce's heavy cruiser was sharing the risk alongside Donners's, Pierce's plan meant that any ship would be out of support range of the other. If someone pounced on one of the light frigates, the heavy cruisers couldn't get to it before it was destroyed.

Donners sighed almost in relief as the slow-moving hulk of a merchant vessal arrived at the grav limit and entered phase space, darting off towards the nexus star at many times the speed of light.

---

Lieutenant Juergans watched his screen carefully as another blip ran across the sensors of the Scimitar. That was the second time in less than ten minutes.

"Command, this is Juergans in sensors. I've got a sensor ghost that could be a bogey on approach vector." Juergans waited for a response for several moments before the feminine voice of the exec whispered into his ear piece.

"Report, Kitch. How could it be a bogey?" asked the exec.

"Well, sir, it looks like it's a sensor ghost but it happened twice now. I'm trying to localize and--got it, sir!" Juergans's voice somewhat faulted as he continued his report. "Sir...it's definitely a contact, and there's no record of anything like this in the navy."

---

"Alright, Ryan," said the Captain as he settled into his command chair. "Give it to me."

"Lieutenant Juergans has the bogey on passive sensors. We can go active any time we want, sir, but we've got the target systems generating new firing solutions with passive data. It's big, sir, at least a heavy cruiser, and from what we can tell, there's no record of it in the fleet."

Donners nodded and gestured from the exec to continue.

"It's slowly creeping up behind us and using our own engine interference to make it's approach. If it weren't for the lieutenant, it'd be in firing range before we knew it."

The captain raised an eyebrow. "Do you think it'll attack?"

"Sir, based on the data, I'd have to say yes. There's no reason for an unidentified to be sneaking up on us this way."

Donners nodded. "Send a tight beam transmission to Captain Pierce, and alert the frigates. They might be able to help us, especially if this is some hot shot pirate dipshit.

"Now, Mister Ryan Anders, here's what I think we'll do..."

---

Captain Amani felt the predatory hunger of her ship's company as they approached the heavy cruiser. It almost bothered her about how her vessel was about to swat the unsuspecting ship like an insect, but, of course, they were terrans--foul abominations that deserved far worse than the cleansing fire she was about to unleash.

The heavy cruiser was already well within range of her weapons, but the closer they got to the planet, the less time the defenders would have to react and--

Captain Amani felt the shock of her sensor acolyte before anything was said.
---

The Scimitar almost effortlessly raised her shields, pelted the ambushing ship with active scanners and turned to present a broadside. Surprise was almost complete as the heavy cruiser belched its kinetic cannons--whose projectiles were actually more like light missiles with suicidally powerful drives and targetting systems almost too stupid to be confused by EW.

The first broadside was devastating. Dozens, scores of the weapons tore into the pursuing ship's hull, tearing holes in the armor, killing men and women, and opening compartments to space. However, it didn't do enough damage to be decisive.

The ship wasn't a heavy cruiser like the Scimitar--it was a battlecruiser. Four times as large as the heavy cruiser, three times the fire power, and its shields flickered to life to interdict further salvoes from the terran ship.

The battlecruiser howled in agony and belched atmosphere. Its engines immediately went to full power, and beams more powerfully than the individual TEC beam weapons mounted on the Kol battleship opened up on the heavy cruiser as the smaller vessel attempted to evade the massive ship.

The Scimitar's shields and armor lasted long enough for the battlecruiser to bring the heavy cruiser into energy range. Advent lasers shattered the Scimitar's hull and erased it and its crew from existance.

---

Private Rufus Jenkins watched streaks in the sunset sky crawl over the horizon. It had been seven standard days--five local--since the Advent had taken the orbitals. The hangar platform and few defense platforms tasked with its protection hadn't even slowed the enemy down and they had cut a swath throw Gregor's orbital industry. The local military lab was the only station that resisted its occupation, and the Advent had reacted harshly to the death of its boarders by destroying the lab's station-keeping drives and simply dropping it into Gregor's atmosphere.

The trajectory had taken it over Gregor's planetary defense center and had wiped out the top thirty percent of Gregor's self-defense force officers as well as a few thousand marines.

Jenkins cursed as another tremor shook dust free into the air. The Advent had spent the past week launching atmosphere capable fast-movers from their orbit. The first few days had seen rather drastic casualties for those forces, but any anti-air site which was identified was quickly eliminated. By the fourth day, there was barely any air-based resistance, and the Advent took merciless advantage of that fact with their air strikes.

The private suspected that the only reason he was still alive was that he was stationed at Villnore Field, Gregor's capital city's spaceport. It became obvious that the Advent were dilberately leaving the spaceport and other industries intact with their air strikes, which meant they meant to use them as staging points for occupational forces.

What was left of the Gregor Self Defense Force had reinforced the spaceports as much as possible, hoping that the sole surviving Gregor defense vessel would bring the navy before they were overrun.

But it wasn't looking very hopeful.

"Squad Seven in position," whispered Lieutenant Roe, Rufus's squad CO.

Roe and the rest of Rufus's squad were huddled behind a makeshift barrier at the very entrance of the spaceport. The last civilians to reach Villnore Field had been there several days and others weren't expected to make it with the Advent air foils patrolling the skies.

"All units, all units. Be advised that enemy vessels have launched. Unidentified incoming mass readings indicate missiles. All units, prepare for orbital bombardment. Repeat..."

"Aw, shit!" cried Private Rollins as she looked up at the sky. Dozens--scores--of missiles streaked over the skies.

"Stow it," said Roe as her pressed his command net earpiece. "Alright, take cover, but be frosty. The general's cleared the spaceport's defenses to fire."

Jenkins grunted as her hopped into his fox hole. If the spaceport wasn't scrap, it would draw the attention of every Advent airfoil the second it opened up on its SAMs and flak cannons on those missiles. Jenkins shook the thoughts from his mind. It didn't matter anyway. The GSDF wouldn't surrender if they could help it, and that meant that Jenkins, Roe, and every other soldier would probably be long dead before that happened.

"Hey, Lieutenant?" whispered Zulu, the squad's heavy weapon specialist who carried the massive anti-armor las-cannon. "How come they're bombarding now? I mean, don't those airfoils already control the skies?"

Roe shrugged. "Who knows how those fuckers think?"

Zulu looked like he wanted to ask something else, but the shrill tones of the air raid sirens drowned out all other conversation, though the marines had plenty to keep them occupied as the automated spaceport defenses went online.

The Abrahms Mk.2 Fletchet Defense Cannon, while near-ancient in its principle, was quite adequate in what is was designed for. Spitting out over a thousand individually self-propelled rockets a minute, the missiles would actually accelerate after leaving the cannon's muzzle. Each rocket carried a specially designed payload which, upon direct contact with another missile, rocket, or small craft, would explode quite spectacularly. However, the warhead's secondary feature was massive load of shrapnel propelled out by the explosion--even a near miss would destroy an unarmored missile or severely damage an incoming shuttle.

Jenkins heard someone whistle as dozens of the white streaks terminated into the black clouds defense cannons' self-immolated rockets, but no matter how many scores were burned down, there were scores of the incoming barrage. A trickle started to bypass the cannon fire, coming in at no more than one or two a time. Rubble shook at the impacts as the missiles dodged through everything the port's defenses could unleash, and the private could see the glowing flash and rising dust as the Advent missiles collided with the ground. There was something odd about tho--

"Incoming!"

Battle instincts drilled into him ever since his first day at basic sent the marine into his trench along with his companions, though Zulu was lucky enough to be behind a sand-bag hidden blast wall with the las-cannon. Moments later, fire and pandemonium filled the world of the marine squad. The ground shook violently enough to have easily thrown the most trained acrobat to the ground, though the squad was already braced against the walls of their trench. Their hole in the ground didn't save them from the intense rolling heat and the fog of dust and debris which followed them into the ground.

The private thought it was completely anti-climactic that the defenses continued to blast as the squad peeked its head up to see what the hell had crashed into them. Less than a hundred meters from them was obviously a man-made structure, but it clearly wasn't a missile. The squad knew it wasn't a missile because anything that had landed that close to them would only have left a smoking crater, barricades or no.

The...pod, for lack of a better description, even had had the tell-tale shards of a near-miss from one of the flak rounds buried in the side, though the rising smoke clouded Jenkins's vision

The next surprise nearly took Private Scheris's head off as a panel exploded off the pod, throwing it at the marines. Luckily, training, adrenaline, and old fashioned luck saved the red-headed woman's neck, quite literally, by allowing her to simply duck back into the hole. The squad didn't have time to recover as a ramp slid down from the panel and a humanoid figured stepped from the pod.

Gleaming white, even through the smog, and highlighted by black, there was no way what was in there could be human! Even full-scale body armor (which the marines didn't have) wouldn't make a person that tall!

Jenkins didn't particularly believe in rumors and boogeymen, but all of a sudden, the idea of someone designing and producing genetically engineered 'super-soldiers' seemed quite likely. Everyone knew that it was impossible--changing the human genome like that created long-lasting defects, and rumor had it that some of those experiments had resulted in rampaging, psychotic 'children' who ended up, well, ending their creators.

The private was jerked from his musings as several other panels blasted off the pod. It must have shaken the lieutenant up as well.

"Fire!" screamed Roe to his squad. "Light 'em up!"

Jenkins and the others took a split second, lined up the muzzle of their assault rifles to the giants and opened fire. They were armed much in the same way that the defense cannons were writ small. Their calibre bullets were also mini-rocket turbo-penetrators, which passed through anything other than battle armor like air and literally liquidated an unarmed human...or vasari. Even if they couldn't pierce their target, the explosives they launched were usually enough to deal with infantry.

Flipped the full-auto, the squad unleashed their fury at the nearest iron giant and...

Nothing. The projectiles didn't pierce the armor. Worst of all, the explosive rounds didn't even dent the armor. That...thing barely even noticed it!

Though barely noticed didn't translate to didn't notice, and the impossibly large humanoid with its impossibly heavy weapon lifted it up, sighted the squad, and opened fire.

The Advent fletchet rounds were designed for ship combat in which the truly heavy weapons (apart from those used to open up stubborn bulkheads) would result in hull breaches which would be somewhat counter productive. With their more advanced tech base, the Advent had taken the self-propelled round to a whole new level. With a scaled down mass-driver, the fletchets relied totally on acceleration...and the thousand rounds a second 'wall of lead'.

Rollins, stationed right next to Jenkins, fell back into the trench, his torso torn to shreds and his face, flesh and bone alike, turned into so much hamburger. The fletchets had simply passed through the dirt to hit the trooper. Though Rollins's body armor had stopped whatever of the little rounds had hit it, it didn't stop the kinetic force from breaking bones and bruising flesh...nor did it stop the projectiles which hadn't been stopped by the armor. The neck, face, shoulders...all were vulnerable, and the rate of fire at a one single target. Jenkins tried not to vomit when he saw his friend's arm a full meter from the stub where it should be.

Jenkins jerked his head back up at the enemy as the boom of Zulu's lascannon sounded. A smaller version of the space-based laser used by many ships, the las-cannon fired a beam of concentrated radiation which burned through nearly everything in known space within its range. Despite knowing all that, the private felt relief roll through him as a hole bigger than his head drilled into the giant's chest. He didn't think they were invincible, but seeing some proof was a bit of a morale boost, and it was quite a boost when the white armored soldier simply slumped to the ground.

He couldn't help but grin like an idiot at Scheris's scream of "hell yeah!" That was, until an equally powerful slammed into Zulu's sandbag covered barrier and evaporated the trooper, along with his weapon and half the blast wall he was using for protection.

Another armored figure had exited the pod. Then another. And another. The private counted nine more. Nine of those things, ignoring the useless shots thrown by the defenders. They started to move.

It was impossible. The whole situation was impossible. They couldn't be that big, they couldn't be that strong, and they couldn't be that fast! Before they could realize it, those giants were so close that Roe could spit a cherry pit at them.

Avoiding all pretenses of finesse, one of the invaders aimed its cannon at one end of the trench and fired. It simply swept the fletchet cannon from one end of the trench to the other, cleaving through each trooper like wheat.

The only thing that had saved Jenkins was that he was on the opposite side of the trench. He was able to barely roll out of the side of the trench. He left his left leg from just above the knee in the hole forever.

Crying out in pain, bloodloss, and shock, he raised his weapon and fired wildly at the super-soldiers. But to no avail. They didn't even notice him. One of the giants simply stepped on his weapon, crushing it, his hand, and his arm beneath the weight of its armored foot.

The last thing Jenkins remembered was the pain. Pain enough for him to vomit all over the ground as the invaders infiltrated the space port. Darkness came over the private as he lay in his blood-stained filth.

---

Three days after Villnore Field fell and the Advent occupied Gregor's capital city, the surviving government surrendered to Advent. They had no choice. Once the Advent had taken the space port, hundreds of troop transports moved thousands of the armored warriors to the planet. Most high level members of the government and military were summarily shot after the surrender.
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Reply #94 Top
The only Aliens I have ever seen shoot discs like that, out of all of the large quantities of Sci-Fi I have read, viewed, or heard of... are The Eldar, from Warhammer 40,000. The guns are known as "shuriken catapults".


there is also another alien race that fires energy discs, the SCRINS from Command and Conquer 3. Their shock troops can be upgraded to fire plasma discs

oops i nearly forgot "^^, superb storytelling witch, u rlly have the soul of a writer. if ever u make a sci-fi book or something, u can be sure i'll buy it.
Reply #96 Top
great story witchfire. can't wait for the next installment. and as far as the "space combat should or shouldnt be x" naysayers, you said what i was thinking all along while reading the thread, witch. you're portraying space combat in the context of "sins." it wouldnt be a "sins of a solar empire" story without strike craft, phase jumps, etc.

anyway, keep it up man.
Reply #97 Top
very nice! the story's great so far, but very very sad. :SNIFF!:
Reply #98 Top
WitchFire, thanks for your brilliant and engaging fan-fiction, you are really bringing the "Sins" universe to life.
I am guessing that you're a fan of David Weber's fiction though, I'm getting a lot of Honorverse similarities, especially when it comes to the political situation behind the war. Also the infantry combat.

I can't wait until you bring the Vasari into the mix, I'm eagerly awaiting the next installment.

As for the 'science', I've always felt that it should be secondary to the story, and since you have the rules of the "Sins" universe to work with you can ignore the impracticalities of space fighters. Also, because even if they are useless in Newtonian physics space combat, they are still a lot of fun to imagine.
Reply #100 Top

it's so interesting how we got a very well informed physics lecture from a sci-fi thread in a forum about a sci-fi game. Oh the joys of forums.

XD