Unit Counters ( I hope this becomes the ultimate counter thread )

sentinel
defender
flak

Since this info was in a devlog and not everyone checks those, here it is reposted






from the thread in the devlog:

WWW Link

That counter chart seems kinda weird. Unless I read it wrong or don't understand something about the game.

Do gardas not counter LRMs Fighters and Bombers?

No they don't counter LRM Frigates as far as I know.

They are not the BEST counter (fighters are), but they are rather effective. Fighters do about 24 DPS to light armor, while Flak frigates only do around 20. However, as the chart says, flaks are by far the best counters against fighters, which have very light armor.

vs a fleet comprised of only/mostly LRM, flaks are actually better than fighters.

advent drone:
9 fighters 24 dps
cost credits 450, metal 100, crystal 50 and 8 supply.
advent defense:
5.55 dps per side, 22.22 dps if hitting on all sides.
cost credits 350, metal 40, crystal 20 and 3 supply.

you can get a lot more flaks than fighter squads for the same price (remember you can convert metal/crystal to credits) and supply.

Gardas are effective against Light armour (100% damage), but they get a bonus against VeryLight (150% damage).

VeryLight Armour - Fighters
Light Armour - Bombers, Scouts, Siege Frigates, Long Range Frigates

Indeed.
Flaks do bonus damage to LRMs, take reduced damage from TEC and Vasari LRMs and have much more HP and armour. The multiple firing arcs are also an advantage if you position them right.

Flaks wont rip a LRMs fleets apart, but are a cost effective "emergency solution" to defeat "mostly LRM" fleets mid- and long term if you can come up with a force of about equal cost.
The numbers in the chart are helpful, but they dont represent the absolute and undisputable gaming reality of sins in all cases.

Flaks are generally very sturdy and can hold out quite long vs Capitals and their abilities.
Even light frigates, which are counters to flaks respectively, are needed in large numbers to punch through a flak fleet in reasonable time.

sorry to say

but all this is not true
there are a few ways to counter LRM class frigates, and TEC garda is not one of them


TEC:
the only way to effectively counter LRM's is to make LRM's of your own, since theyre made pretty fast


Advent:
best way to counter LRM is using the Illuminator, since it needs 3 tech levels this is not always avaible
instead use Defence vessels, the adventanti fighter frigate is the strongest of its type and wil do good damage to both friagtes and fighters


Vasari:
also get your LRM class friagte asap here, other then that the vasari havent got anything to effectively counter LRM in a fast paced game



always remeber that the LRM is not overpowerd, it only does good damage vs light frigates. to counter dont panic.

example of all this, i was Advent on a small random map
i got rushed with alot of lrms (15) and even lost my capital ship (progenitor)
even so i managed to reatreat most of my fleet get some defence vessels and illuminators and destroy the enemy's fleet.

in the end, i won the game without building a new capital ship
this proves that massing is the worst strategy their is, since once your enemy knows what class your massing it'll get something to counter it. lrm vs lrm is the best strategy to TEC and Vasari, tough for Advent the best trategy is to get both Illuminators and Defence vessels (or only defence vessels when somehow cannot get the tech


this concludes my opinion how to counter LRM rush

Why counter LRMs with LRMs? That makes no sense...
A counter is something that is more effective than the original strategy. "Countering" LRMs with LRMs means that economic power and travel routes are the deciding factors.

As a TEC example:

You can build 12-13 LRMs for 10 Flaks resource wise.
In a direct 1on1 fight of those forces the LRMs will be completely destroyed in the end while the flak fleet will have lost about 3 ships. Try it out if you dont believe it.
Such a "sterile" 1on1 fight wont ever happen, with capital ships, abilities and moving fleets and all, but it does show the direct combat advantage.

so you're saying LRMs only pose a severe threat if you frigate spam?
obviously enough of them would kill anything, but in context...
i always get frigate spammed

It may just be me, but i can't quite seem to figure out how this "sins ship damage chart" works, any help?

Also what does LRM stand for?

Edit: One more thing, these charts are they the same for vasari/advent?

Long Range Missile i believe.
Yea the chart gave me a bit of trouble too.
ok, just had a look, if u look at the top row, it gives you the ship class, armour class and damage class (for example). Say you want to find out what the LRM is best at, you look at the damage type, then go to the ship class of the corresponding colour. If you want to see what it gets damaged by, you look at its armour class then look up the corresponding colour in the damage type, then scoot across to see what ship it is. The ones that match up are the ones you want to use.
Thats how i am reading it...a bit awkward to put into words tbh, if someone else can do it better?

Each type of ship has an Armour type and a Damage type (first table on the chart)

The different Damage types are more or less effective against different Armour types (second table on the chart).

For example, take a flak frigate and a light frigate.

The flak frigate has Heavy armour and does Anti-VeryLight damage. The light frigate has Medium armour and does Anti-Heavy damage.

When attacking the light frigate, the flak frigate will do 25% of its normal damage (Anti-VeryLight damage vs Medium armour).

When attacking the flak frigate, the light frigate will do 125% of its normal damage (Anti-Heavy damage vs Heavy armour).


Long Range Missile, the TEC long range frigate, although it's also used as a generic term for the 'long range frigate' class of all races.


The Armour and Damage type of each ship class is the same, regardless of faction, with the exception of Advent long range frigates (Illuminators), which do Capital damage rather than the Anti-Medium damage of the other two factions' long range frigates.

much better put, thanks

The Damage Chart above shows only hard counters, and basically this is about Armor Types. Basically multipliers that your attack gets modified by when hitting a specific kind of ship, although various layers of defense have to be defeated before this layer of defense comes into play. The layers of defense act to lower your attack in this order:

Shield Mitigation -> Shields -> Shield Regeneration -> Armor Type -> Armor -> Hull Points -> Hull Repair

LRM stands for Long-Range Missile, obtained from the TEC's "Javelis LRM Frigate", but the Vasari's Kanrak Assailant and the Advent's Illuminator Vessel have also picked up the term. Correctly, it should be Long Range Frigate.

The charts will be mostly the same for the others with a few exceptions. As it is, this chart is rather incomplete.

I should really know this, given that I've played several games as Advent now, but if Illums are anti-capitals, what's the most efficient Advent counter to light frigates? Disciples? Fighters?

Are you saying that armour/damage type modifiers only apply once the shields are down? If so, where did this information come from?

Likewise, do you know how armour actually works?


Other than the Illuminator, which is on the chart, what are the other exceptions?


Incomplete how?