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Some people don't like updates after release...?

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Some people don't like updates after release...?

from Stardock Forums
I was reading something interesting on another forum. In essence, they conclude without having played Galactic Civilizations that it was released unfinished and buggy.

Their proof? Because we keep releasing updates for it.

This does indeed create an interesting marketing issue. I would assert that GalCiv 1.0, out of the box, was very solid.

It is unfortunate that there is so much cynicism these days that some people don't see free updates for what they are. Heck, did the BonusPak even come with any "bug fixes"? Or does anyone think that the MP3 play list editor built into the BonusPak was something that should have been put into the retail box?

I think anyone reading this thread probably feels as I do, that the updates are something that are not just good for GalCiv but something they'd like to see become a wider trend.

Free updates after release that add real features and tweak the game based on player feedback not only are good for customers but they discourage piracy and in the long run increase sales since users are more apt to purchase a game even if there's no return policy if it becomes a standard business practice to keep enhancing the game after release.

Hopefully those of you reading this, if you ever encounter someone claiming that GalCiv or any game that is releasing value-add updates after release were, in truth, released as "buggy" or "unfinished" will know the truth and help keep such erroneous misconceptions from going forward.

You can imagine how our publisher, Strategy First or future publishers would feel if they believed that the release of significant amounts of updates after release gave the general population the perception that the only reason there are all these updates is to fix a "buggy" or "unfinished" game.
3,801 views 90 replies
Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top
Doctahg - what about the trade goods/wonders bug?

The good thing about the Galactic Civilisations first release was that while there were a few rough edges, they didn't interfer with the game too much. Admitidly, I didn't have any of the ctd bugs, so I don't know how bad they were. Many other games are released in an almost unplayable state.
Siege of Centauri
Reply #29 from Stardock Forums Top
What is this, political correctness for patches? ;)

Whether you call it an update, or an enhancement pack, or post-shipment-value-enhancer, doesn't change that it IS a patch.

Is it a patch to fix bugs? Is it a patch to add new features? Is it a patch to tweak game balance? Is it all three? Does it really matter?

It seems to me that the majority of reviews, if they're familiar with Stardock and its practices, have mentioned the dedicated and longterm support this game will get as a feature. It also seems to me that the majority of the users who are speaking up online are very much delighted by the amount of support the game has received post shipment. So, don't let the ignorant ramblings of people who can't even take the time to give the game or its parent company a look much weight.

The thing that stands out to me about GalCiv is that although it did ship with its share of bugs, not one was game stopping, and in the sheer size of the game, their effects were washed out to where unless you were both very familiar with the game and looking for them you would probably never even know unless someone pointed them out to you.

Keep my paches coming :)
Reply #30 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree with Slithirin. The terminology of "patch" is akin to "fixes". The majority of updates I have seen are improvements sought by the customers, so a more suitable name for these types of releases sounds in order. And, they should be advertised as such as publically as possible. Promote this practice even as a selling feature. Myself? I love the fact that these updates are frequent and balanced. It's nice to see that these updates take into account the casual/novice player as well as the advanced.

-Anxiety
Reply #32 from Stardock Forums Top
From too much interaction with gamers (thus taking away time to play the games ;) ), I've noticed that the more vocal fans tend to:

* Get upset when a new patch is released on the same day as the game, or shortly thereafter because "they knowingly shipped a flawed game."

* Get upset when a new patch isn't out right away "because these bugs need to be fixed NOW."

* Get upset when new features are added via patch or expansion - expansion, moreso, because it's easier to accuse the developer of "withholding features for said expansion," because the programmers, scripters, etc. with their copious free time can make a game and a half, and keep the half for release a year later.

And the list goes on. Support is good, despite a few strident objectors.

~SDC~
Reply #33 from Stardock Forums Top
I haven't posted here before, but I'll throw in my two cents. The REASON I purchased this game without a demo and without a major publication review was BECAUSE of the updates. Before GalCiv, I never purchased a game where the content was enhanced for reasons other than play-balancing or bug-fixing. When I read how the AI was being modified based on results from Metaverse, the deal was sealed. When I bought the game, it was at version 1.02x, and within a few days I was updating to version 1.03x. I certainly hope to see this trend continue with this game and, with any luck, become a standard among other game development companies.

BTW, in case it wasn't blatanly obvious, GREAT GAME!
Reply #34 from Stardock Forums Top
I am a software developer, not for games unfortunately, but for business. If you release a product, and then not support it, then that product will fail in the marketplace. Post-release, a few product modifications, can make a huge difference in how a product is accepted.

Computer gaming industry culture is sometimes amusing. While it often has the latest tech, the development and support areas are well behind the times. I would imagine that this is because everything is built from scratch, then left for the next new thing.

Reply #35 from Stardock Forums Top
Bobo say he know where those people who say GalCiv buggy come from. Bobo not want to tell. Him nice. But Bobo give clue: come from people who got game not playable months ago and still not have update yet.Then jealous. Bobo think some can figure out. Lots people clever like Bobo.
Reply #36 from Stardock Forums Top
I am a vary wary customer when it comes to buying ANY PC game. I always realize that there are two many hardware configurations to take into account and that the game may be buggy with hardware issues. So this is one thing that I don't let bother me. BUT what I do hate is when the game has in game issues that make the game unplayable, like a glitch that prevents you from completing the game (see Taylon's post as an example). I have always wanted to go buy Neverwinter Nights but a friend is still having in-game issues with the 23rd patch, he fought a dragon and got less xp then a goblin (umm wierd).

But then I came across this site and I was blown away by the amount of suggestions and comments that players of GalCiv were making and the number of responses from the developers. I immediatley went to the local computer store and bought a copy of the game (first PC game in about 12 months) because I knew that if there was ever an issue in this game that would prevent me from actually doing what games are intended for (HAVING FUN) then I would only have to wait a short time before such an issue would be pathced. No more waiting 6 months for a patch to be made to fix an issue.

And to this day I have not been dissapointed, Kudos to all who have made and are continuing to make GalCiv such an enjoyable game.

I will be out there stamping out any misconceptions that GalCiv is buggy.

:D
Reply #37 from Stardock Forums Top
Updates are good for the community, which in turn is good for marketing (and sales).

I have heard the similiar line in the AGE community, but overall the hard core (I will come back from another game by the GC group), updates of these type are necessary (play game improvement, little bugs (or suggestion fixes), free CONTENT!, etc.

Look at Civ II, how many Patches were released ? - 13 (or more) can we say huge fan base and Game of Year ?, And for example our recent game "Age of Mythology" (Doing quite well in sales - thank you :). We have released 5 patches so far and a free four scenario Cpn for it. Now a days with tight PC market and the high price of games, add on content and bug/suggestion fixes are going to be the standard (IMO).

Regards,

Mike "Archangel" McCart
Community Relations Manager
Ensemble Studios (Microsoft)
http://www.ensemblestudios.com
Developers of the Age of Empires Series of Games

~SDC~
Reply #38 from Stardock Forums Top
Sweet! Ensemble is truly one of the greatest shows running, Mike. AoK took up sooo many hours. Wonderful experience with it.

But don't hire away Brad! He's doing great things as an Indie!!! :D
Reply #39 from Stardock Forums Top

First off, let me say that I never played 1.0. By the time I got the game from Best Buy, 1.02 was out and I immediatly installed SDC and updated to it.

I think some of the language in this thread is a little strong. Some developers release games that are unplayable without a patch, but I don't think it's quite as rampant as has been claimed. Many games add features with the patches before expansion time (although not as much as this).

Patches are a part of PC life, and that's not likely to ever change. A company cannot test every patch level of every OS with every graphics card and every sound card and make sure none of them crash after doubleclicking while pressing space bar during the transition movie. Or that clever gamers are going to figure out a way to exploit a hole in the system that the beta testers didn't think of. In a patchless world, like consoles, you have the same dime double-wide middle linebacker blitz that can't be stopped not matter how many times you play Madden 2002. On the other hand they only have to test for one set of hardware, and no OS, which narrows the permutations significantly.

I think the level of support on this product has been outstanding, and I play a LOT of games. I'm planning on upgrading to Drengin.net (will I lose my metaverse history or has that been fixed?) Based on what I've seen so far, I'd be happy to support this company both vocally and financially, and think that distributers will respond to that.


Reply #40 from Stardock Forums Top
I also did not buy this game UNTIL I knew there were patches available. I am a former IT manager who lives with a programmer, so I know that no code shipped as a 1.0 will be perfect enough for every user. Hence, I expect patches as part of customer service and support and would never buy a software title without such.

Perhaps this complaint is yet another social disfunction that can be chalked up to the anonymity of certain media; people need to vent as part of day to day life and here's a safe way to do that.

I wish I could say something encouraging with respect to publishers, but I don't have much experience with those animals :). All I can offer is my thanks and support to a great group of developers for a great game, and my hope that the sales figures will echo my sentiment.

Wendy

P.S. Bobo is my hero :D !
Reply #41 from Stardock Forums Top
Part of the reason I bought the game was because of the promise of hardcore customer service. I have been far from dissapointed. 1.1 with the bonuspack was what I started out with when I bought the game, and it was amazingly free of problems compared to many other products after their first major update...an update that came around the same time the game was released! Nothing to complain about there.
Reply #42 from Stardock Forums Top
Updates are a good thing....in no way does it mean the game is buggy. I am quite impressed that you listen to our sugguestions and incorporate them into the game. I mean, come on, how many companies actually do that these days? You guys actually ASK for our sugguestions rather than simply incorporate what you THINK we would liek to see. Such is a rare and wonderous thing nowadays.

I bought the game because I liked what I saw, I first came to these boards to see how the Devs interacted with the public, from the beginning, I was seriously impressed with the open lines of communication here. Reading the people's sugguestions for and general love of the game, that convinced me to purchase the game, as a matter of fact I enjoy the game so much that I have talked 5 friends into purchasing it. Actually that was rather easy, I simply let them play on my system for an hour....nuff said, they are addicts now. ;)

So my thoughts on this matter are simply.....UPDATE AWAY....the more evolved we can make GC, the greater the enjoyment we can gain from it!
Reply #43 from Stardock Forums Top
Aw c'mon Brad.. if you are going to make us aware of such an eyyyvl forum, you have to provide a link, as well. We won't inundate their site with a barrage of angsty, angry GalCiv babble.. promise! ;p


fleabitfox
Reply #44 from Stardock Forums Top
It's interesting to compare Stardock's approach to patches with what is traditionally done by game companies.

In the traditional approach, a patch will address a large number of known problems and go through extensive QA before it is released. Because of this the time between patches is months. In addition, some bugs still get past QA.

In Stardock's approach patches and updates are released often, but with minimal testing. It is not unusual to find a fix a day after a problem is reported.

The big advantage to Stardock's method is that customers aren't concerned about bugs introduced in updates because they are fixed so quickly. Customer feedback takes the place of QA testing and is better at finding problems.

A perfect example of this was the AI constructor bug in the initial 1.03 update. It made the game practically unplayable because the AI could make a constructor every turn. No one was upset with the bug because it was fixed so quickly.

You can imagine how people would have felt if this bug had been introduced in a patch they had waited months for and if they would had to weeks longer to get it fixed.
Reply #45 from Stardock Forums Top
I think frequent updates are much more sensible than infrequent ones. It does not matter HOW much testing a development team does on a myriad of fixes in their game, it is absolutely guaranteed there will still be issues. The sheer # of things people try will drum up something they missed, or someone will take advantage of an invented cheese based on a new 'balance'.

If you've a dedicated dev team like this one (and truth be told, this is the MOST attentive customer response I've seen in a game so far), frequent patches are the way to go!

fleabitfox
Reply #46 from Stardock Forums Top
fleabitfox I agree. I have never felt as loyal to a comunity as I do with G.C.

When I first started reading this fourum I said to myself this frogboy really gets into helping people out, perhaps more then this Brad guy I keep hearing about LOL only to find out thay are one and the same and NOT JUST the most loyal fan but mother and father of the game! I was floored,to see such devotion that I have never with any other game group.

I may be in left field here but I feel like G.C. gamers are like part of a family we help each other we fight we agree we disagree we kiss and make up :)

And when you miss with mom and dad (frogboy) IM ready to fight >:(

I have wrote a revue at EB world, name PHONEPLACE and will write more when the frog says where. :CONGRAT:

P.S. frogboy G.C. gets great revues on most every site.Any good dealer will read them. ;)
Reply #47 from Stardock Forums Top
@fleabitfox:
the forum you are looking for is the apolyton forum for
GalCiv... There was a troll there on the board but we dealed with him very quickly (even frogboy came to our help LOL )
Reply #49 from Stardock Forums Top
(response to #48)

THAT was the post that Frogboy was referencing? Jeez, that post is what, 2 weeks old? I just ignored it as soon as I saw that the guy hadn't even (apparently) bought/played the game. He just wanted to discuss the 'theory' of updating without actually having experienced what Stardock was delivering. Or maybe he was just trolling. Ugh.
Reply #50 from Stardock Forums Top
Just wanted to put my $0.02 in. I bought GalCiv after visiting this website and seeing what the developer (Frogboy et al.) had done and more importantly their attitude towards customers. I got it and started playing 1.00 from the get go. There were a few tiny bugs but nothing unplayable IMHO. Now I am at version 1.02. The gripes I have are due more to the support structure than GalCiv itself, and can be summerized:

1) Too many different support venus/websites/etc. I can't recall how many times I've had to enter my S/N to access something or to attempt to register.
2) Can't update metaverse scores like many other people, not sure if this has been fixed. It's my greatest peeve here.
3) Random crashes to desktop w/ version 1.0, may have to do with sound card (Live!) as mentioned in a patch (but nothing to do with MP3 player).

These things are really tiny and don't detract too much. I love the product, I love the support, I love the spirit of this game company! The model as Brad has it now (constant development and upgrading) is smart. I don't like many of the new features in version 1.03 so therefore I won't install it until I at least have so say over those issues (SB costs, etc.) But I don't feel forced to upgrade either, which is a good thing. Oh, lastly let me second the idea presented here regarding updates to make the fanbase happy instead of improving the game. We *may* move towards a game that only the real experts can play and have fun with, and not the (probable vast majority) rest of us. This is a danger of using this type of user-support model that we should be aware of.

(back to lurking)

Rob