Some people don't like updates after release...?

from Stardock Forums
I was reading something interesting on another forum. In essence, they conclude without having played Galactic Civilizations that it was released unfinished and buggy.

Their proof? Because we keep releasing updates for it.

This does indeed create an interesting marketing issue. I would assert that GalCiv 1.0, out of the box, was very solid.

It is unfortunate that there is so much cynicism these days that some people don't see free updates for what they are. Heck, did the BonusPak even come with any "bug fixes"? Or does anyone think that the MP3 play list editor built into the BonusPak was something that should have been put into the retail box?

I think anyone reading this thread probably feels as I do, that the updates are something that are not just good for GalCiv but something they'd like to see become a wider trend.

Free updates after release that add real features and tweak the game based on player feedback not only are good for customers but they discourage piracy and in the long run increase sales since users are more apt to purchase a game even if there's no return policy if it becomes a standard business practice to keep enhancing the game after release.

Hopefully those of you reading this, if you ever encounter someone claiming that GalCiv or any game that is releasing value-add updates after release were, in truth, released as "buggy" or "unfinished" will know the truth and help keep such erroneous misconceptions from going forward.

You can imagine how our publisher, Strategy First or future publishers would feel if they believed that the release of significant amounts of updates after release gave the general population the perception that the only reason there are all these updates is to fix a "buggy" or "unfinished" game.
3,751 views 90 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
There will always be cynical people, but please don't let that stop from you from improving an already awesome game.
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
I have been promoting GC every place I go. I post many reviews and interesting tidbits pertaining to upgrades on the site to. I always point everyone to this wonderful site for further information or to buy it. I plan to place a link directly to Stardock central and encourage people to check out your products. There is only one reason I am doing this, you guys not only offer updates, you listen to the community of players. Your excellent policies are what make the game exciting.

Most other companies release programs that are real buggy. All gamers know that, that statement could not of been made by a gamer just a casual player. I was a beta tester for Firaxis, they are a good example of how company should not be. Their software remains today a very bug ridden program in some ways. They hardly ever pay attention to what the community wants. If they do they will only release it in a expansion pack forcing you to shell out more money. The XP for that game was also released super buggy.
My point is not too run down another company, it is to make the statement. I played GC right out of the box without a patch. It was solid I only ran across a few quirks. I upgraded to 1.02 enjoying it ever since. I say ignor those who make unwarranted rants about the game without reviewing it first. You have myself and several other friends of mine comitted to GC. We will be playing and making mods for a very long time.
What other game company has a CEO on their forums? Come on this is just great stuff no way to complain about a thing. IMHO (After I said something, but I did apolgize after I saw my mistake!) Keep up the great work Frogboy we all appreciate it very much. :D :CONGRAT:

~SDC~
Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Don't worry, this isn't a matter of concern with pride or anything along those lines. Merely perception in how it may affect distributors and publishers.

We really like doing the updates. What we want to avoid is the situation where publishers or distributors begin asking us NOT to do updates due to people thinking that the boxed version of the game is "buggy" or "incomplete".
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
If it makes you feel better, I've seen people throw the same untrue accusations at other games that release updates too.

I've been following the new Star Wars Galaxies online game (which isn't even out of beta yet), and every time they announce a feature that will be added post-release a vocal minority practically accuses them of being evil incarnate. ;) Even though the new features would add alot to the game.

I, and I think a lot of other people, have been really impressed with the service we've gotten from your company. I'm really glad I bought Galactic Civilzations, it was money very well spent. Hopefully your sales numbers will speak for themselves, and the publishers won't bug you about it. :)
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
Actually it's almost the updates that have been keeping me playing. When I see what a new one adds, I can't wait to get home and try! :) I seem to be addicted to making sure I'm running the most up to date version. Sad, I know. The updates have been adding worthwhile stuff too.

But you are right, the game out of the box (or d/l) was solid. More solid than a certain other recently released space empire game! And a lot more fun, to boot.

As for the perception thing, I hope they don't do that..... although I see how the false impression could be hard to fight. If it comes to it, you've built up a loyal fanbase that will probably write to magazines if they claim that Galciv is buggy!

There you see, the excellent (actually read unparalelled) customer servive you guys provide might actually be useful! ;)

Seriously though, this game has such promise, your delivery method and respect for your customers has won you lot many sales. Word of mouth (internet?) is spreading! We will champion your cause!

Hmmmm.... my sense of humour is getting wierd on me again. Spelling's going out the window too. From the way I spelt humour, you must know I'm from the UK..... it's almost 2:30 am. Yikes! How did that happen?

Keep up the good work.

~SDC~
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
That updates in and of themselves indicate an inferior product is probably something only someone with an inferior mind would think. The only issue with regards to updates that I think worries/bothers people is when a change is made that forces them to change their playing style. The issue of balancing vs. nerfing.

As anyone who has ever dealt with persistent gaming worlds (Muds, MMORPGs, etc.) knows you run the risk of alienating a percentage of your player base with each change you introduce in an update. But you also run the risk of losing a percentage of gamers who see an area that they think needs change and then quit playing when they don't see that change happening.

I think it's dangerous for a developer to focus on the players of the game over the game itself. I've seen a couple of Muds die because the implementors got caught up in a lethal feedback situation with their players. This can be especially problematic if you have both a vocal hardcore and softcore population giving you feedback.

I think a developer should focus on one thing: making the game better. Any fan feedback that creates a better game is great, but that should be the priority, not changing the game to create better feedback from the fans. You make it a better game and people will play it. I think the Stardock team has done a good job of that with GalCiv.

Any game as complex as GalCiv is going to have a laundry list of bugs, only someone who is very naive could think otherwise. What seperates a good game company from a bad one is whether those bugs are addressed. Anyone who pays attention here can see that the Stardock team is on the ball in this area. I expect that a month from now 90% of the current issues will be history.
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
dammit, Frogboy, you need to quit worrying about what other people are thinking.

One reason that GalCiv is such a fine game (for me, it's in the upper echelon along with MOO1) is probably because you guys have operated with little publicity and low expectations, allowing you guys to stay true to your original goals without having to compromise for marketing whims (multiplayer, eye candy, etc).

As a 4Xer since the days of Civ1, I can assure you that GalCiv is a *great* game. Just keep doing what you've been doing and screw what the other people think. The bugs I've hit have been trivial compared to other games I've played.

When you build a game like this, games will keep coming. Games like this have long legs because they travel by word of mouth. If you think you're making a lot of money on the unexpected success of this game, just wait until the pre-orders for GalCiv 2. You guys will be rich, I tell you, RICH!

However, if you are the kind of guy who needs positive-reinforcement, I'm sure we can arrange a regular email campaign to remind you of what a damn fine game you and the Stardock team have created. ;)

oh yeah, great game. Congrats!


Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
"When you build a game like this, games will keep coming."

uh, *gamers* will keep coming.

DOH!
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
No, no, I disagree with such a shallow analysis (that the other forum provided, not with these here posts ;) ). I think that you're onto something here. I've read your position papers that you've posted about the future of game distribution, development, support, etc. and I find your vision very intrigueing. I'm hoping that that future is realized and that maybe this game and its success will help to bring it about.
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
I really think that the often updates are a good thing. The game right out of the Box was a solid product. Far better than what most release, in fact the last beta was more a solid product than most games I have bought. None of the Updates are needed I consider the Patches more here are some extra fun things than anything like fixes. This is a far superior product and the company give much better support for thier game than any I have seen in recient times. Really don't think of what the others are saying think of what we the people playing it are saying. With a game this good more players will come. Keep the updates coming I check often for a new one.

~SDC~
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
Lets be honest... it wasn't all THAT long ago, that most people didn't even know there was such a thing as a patch. I would argue that it included some game publishers.

Here's my alltime greatest example. Way back in the day, I bought Outpost (I'll leave the company's name out of it). This game was released WITHOUT the tech in the game to allow you to finish it. I think this was in '94 that the game was out. You had to get cheat codes to get unlimited resources to allow yourself to play past a certain point. Eventually the company put out a 4mb patch. Nothing by today's standards, but huge for then. Considering that many computer manufacturer's considered modems to be optional equipment, I shudder to think how many people bought a completely busted game.

Fast forward to today. I rarely buy a game until there is a patch available, mainly because I know how hard it is to test these things.

You said yourself that GC was pretty stable when it was launched. Its getting good press. I don't think you can be overly concerned by an uneducated few. If that's ALL you start to hear though.... :notsure:
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
There's a bit of a disconnect within the PC Game side of things I noticed. In the MMORPG, constant updates and patches after a build is expected, and if none come down, then people start screaming bloody murder.

In the rest of the game industry, its considered taboo.

I think you might want to change the name of the updates to something like enhancement packs or bonus packs, that way it presents the impression that you're augmenting the game or tweaking its existing features and not so much bug fixes.

SeanB
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Ah, Outpost, that classic ripoff that has never yet been surpassed (not even by Battlecruiser). I got it home, opened the box, and inside is a printed sheet of paper stating how sometimes some features don't make it into the game. It then listed every single feature that was touted on the game box itself as not included. A truly ballsy bit of work, I've bought like one Sierra product in all the years since then (and that was just with Sierra as the 3rd party involved).
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
Outpost was remarkable for not having absolutely required features. For example: roads. You could mine all the resources in the world and couldn't deliver so much as one rock!

Brad, I wouldn't worry so much. You have a VERY loyal fan/customer base. I know I've been promoting the game to anybody who will listen. You have no idea how remarkable that is. I'm one of those people who won't wear clothing with a logo because the company isn't paying me to advertise! But I freely and willingly spread the word about this game. If your product is good enough to get ME to do that, then you have nothing to worry about!
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
Frogboy, if this is the Apolyton thread that I think it is, I'm the Eric S that posted in that thread, so you know my opinion :) Basically, I thought that whats-his-name was twisting facts to support his theory because he was married to his theory rather than to reality.

Personally, I'm a programmer, and I've never seen a fellow programmer that could leave a program he cared about alone, and it's pretty obvious your team cares about GalCiv.
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
I think that GalCiv is a great game, and it certainly has a loyal customer base, as mk31bolo pointed out. And I don't think there is even question whether game feature updates are a Good Thing. The game is now much more balanced than it was in the first release.

But sometimes I think that while the forum is loyal to Stardock, its love is quite blind, too.

The fact that people like feature updates doesn't mean that they like bug fixes. I think I can look at GalCiv quite objectively, and to be honest, I wouldn't call the first release "solid". It had several bugs in calculating things, several crash bugs, and several small-but-needs-fixing bugs like building multiple trade goods. I don't call a game solid if it crashes even once; that's absolutely out of question, and first release crashed on my computer maybe once in an hour, roughly.

The special thing about Stardock is the pace at which it took care of the bugs, and the responsiveness to user feedback here at the forum. Thanks! But a bit more self-criticism wouldn't hurt anyone.
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
I like updates.

I liked it a lot when EU II and HOI were (and are) updated.

I liked it that when I played for the first time yesterday I started on 1.03 already.

Keep updating.
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
My housemate just bought Spinter Cell for the PC. It was really, really jerky when he played it, and he was peeved, since he just bought a new grapics card and everything was well over specced.

Turned out he needed a patch

70meg. We have broadband, but still. Then when he got it, it told him "This is only for the North American release". No warning on the website, had to go and find the Europe version through a bit of legwork. Imagine hat 56k-ers mood would of been like at this stage.

My point is that person posting wsn't really being cynical. He was making incorrect assumptions and not checking up on his facts, but the truth is that lots of the big companies do release buggy, unfinished, and unplayable software, and then offer far worse support in getting it fixed than Stardock has.

This is more of a problem with the big companies with big marketing budgets, where the release deadline is, I imagine, fixed many, many months in advance so that TV adverts and the like can be planned.

I like the continual patching, but I also think there were several problems in the initial release of Galactic Civilisations that really shouldn't of been there. I would of been very annoyed if they hadn't of been fixed.

But then, that's true of any large game release. I cannot imagine Strategy First being worried about patches being needed - every single game I have bought in the last five years has needed patches.
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
Uggh, sorry about that last post, I started to lose the plot a bit and wander all over the place.
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree with you, MojoJojoUK. PC gamers have become the most cynical people on the planet. And with good reason.

The nay-sayers are coming to a justifiable conclusion based upon what has become standard industry practice.

It's the wrong conclusion in this case, since arguably I've had more bugs from the updates than I ever encountered in 1.0. :)

Love GalCiv. Love the frequent updates of new features and rules balancing. Keep it up!
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
My 2 cents....I've enjoyed this game out of the box. I enjoy the updates. It feels like I'm getting more for my money. Keep up the good work, Frogboy!!! :)
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
Personally, I think the price I paid for Gal Civ is WAY too little compared to the effort that StarDock is putting into this game. Most publishers of games today release the game and then leave it as is except for minor bug fixes. But Brad/StarDock's vision is to continue evolving the game to make the game and AI better.

AI is HARD to program, and the AI in Gal Civ is quite amazing and fun and challenging and... I would put Brad and his team up above any team of programmers for any other game. The vision of allowing players to submit their games to the MetaVerse and use that data to continue improving the AI? You just cannot imagine how awesome that is--and how time consuming--very, very time consuming.

From the bottom of my heart, Brad, thanks for your vision and for the dream realized. Once again, thank you for losing sleep to make this game better for us.
Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top

I've been lurking for awhile but after seeing the initial post I felt it was time to speak up...
I based my decision to purchase this game after going to your webpage and reviewing the forums, looking for that subject line: "I bought it but it don't work."
The only ones that came close were due to the dreaded operator error and the person usually thanked whoever helped them out and put a doh! in there, which says it all. I can see why you're concerned regarding the possible 'bum rap' from the term updates. I check for updates though I played the game straight from the box w/o any problems and had a blast to boot. I think alot of people who are serious about buying a game will do as I did and check out the forums or go hunting for reviews. I started out as a casual player but this damn thing is too addictive for that.
The way you are conducting yourselves makes me feel like I not only bought a game but also made a long term investment. I sure can't say that about alot of other companies.
Keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
Kelly D. Crawford
Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top
BobMayer is totally correct.

PC gamers are cynical thesedays, but with good reason.

MTW : 1 Patch for free

The next one you have to pay for in the Viking expansion.

Well they are not getting my money for that.

The Industry has itself to blame for a lot of complaints. Thankfully companies like this one (and Paradox)are around which buck the trend and give a good service.

Keep it up.
Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top
The only *bug* I've had in the release version was the crash to the desktop...none other than that. I'd say that's a success! Keep the updates coming!
Doc