What is the logic behind Phoenix ships?

from Stardock Forums
For the cost of 200 production points and 6 BC/turn maintenance, these ships have a hard time beating a single Corvette, let alone 4 of them for the same production cost and less maintenance. Given that they are slower than Corvettes as well, it's hard to use them on attack if the new tactical algorithms are put in place, let alone the AI using them against human players. Is there any chance we will see an improvement to this ship class? Do you think it is necessary?
1,275 views 37 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
They should be faster if they are for hit & run. They've got a hell of an attack.

~SDC~
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
I upped them a bit thru the text files. I think I increased the defense to two and hitpoints to 15 - AI builds them now, and I've had a few dreads lost to them.
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Didn't up the speed? They really should be faster than Corvettes, they even look faster than Corvettes? Ehem... Brad?



~SDC~
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
I really need some aspirin for this headache. That original post of mine was horribly written :notsure:

Just for fun, I decided to use the battle simulator in the metaverse to see how Phoenix performed against some other ships, giving them the benefit of first strike. They are still capable of defeating low level ships like Defenders, Corvettes, but they struggle against the similarily pathetic Battle Cruiser and are just totally outclassed by the other ship types...

It takes 3 Phoenix to defeat 1 Battle Axe or Frigate
It takes 4 Phoenix to defeat 1 Combat Transport
It takes 5 Phoenix to defeat 1 Battleship
It takes 6 Phoenix to defeat 1 Battle Hammer
It takes 13 Phoenix to defeat 1 Dreadnought
It takes 20 Phoenix to defeat 1 Avatar
It takes 60 Phoenix to defeat 1 Overlord
It takes 300 Phoenix to defeat 1 Excalibur

If Phoenix were intended to be bottom feeders, they will need a significant speed boost so they can actually catch up with Star Fighters and Corvettes. If they're meant to be used as pseudo-missiles, they're going to need a significant boost in attack points. Build cost or maintenance reductions can be considered too. Maybe Brad can take a look at the metaverse and see if he can count the number of people use Phoenix ships on one hand ;)
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
"Maybe Brad can take a look at the metaverse and see if he can count the number of people use Phoenix ships on one hand"

Do you really think he needs that much? ;)

I took one look at the ship and *when* it was available and ran away quickly.
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
"It takes 4 Phoenix to defeat 1 Combat Transport"

I see the Phoenix as a CT-hunter (just like the Starfighter/Corvette are transport-hunters), but unfortunately it doesn't perform well in that role unless you have +300% military bonus :( Now if it was able to lay mines or bypass escort ships to attack CT's then maybe... ;)

Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
Yes, Phoenixes are just as useless as Star Hawks. Has any one of you ever built the latter? At the time when Star Hawks are available there are no anomalies or debris left to make it a sensible choice. I think Brad and the gang should take a thorough look through the ship classes... :notsure:
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
IMHO this is because developers can't write a good tactical AI. So they don't want to give players ablility to harass opponents for now because AI can't do it.

~SDC~
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
Well it will be more honest to say 'good tactical AI that can use harassment with some efficiency' because AI is better than in most other games.

~SDC~
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
In response to:

"Yes, Phoenixes are just as useless as Star Hawks. Has any one of you ever built the latter? At the time when Star Hawks are available there are no anomalies or debris left to make it a sensible choice. I think Brad and the gang should take a thorough look through the ship classes..."

I never, ever made a Star Hawk yet. I usually don't even bother to build myself a new 'Hero' if the first one gets destroyed.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
Re: Starhawks
Yes, I have built them (well one). My initial USS Hero had been taken out in a war and, in spite of what you say, I've never seen all the anomalies used up on a huge or gigantic map, and only once on a large map - so when it came available I built it.

Now, granted, I learned my lesson about how largely useless they were and switched my explorer over to a Ranger as soon as could and wound up with one extremely powerful ship.
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Anomolies regenerate all thru the course of the game. I always make it a point to have at least 4 survey capible ships going as soon as I can.

~SDC~
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
The AI should be more aware of rebuilding survey ships after it is lost, by the way.
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
Andre_0:

I have never noticed anomalies regenerating in game, but I haven't been paying much attention to that either. I you sure about that?
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
ZaH, I have observed it repeatedly. Wait until mid- to late-game, preferably long after you've stopped scouting for anomalies, and either send the Hero out again (if you still have it) or build a Ranger or something and send it out. You might be surprised. :)

~SDC~
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
Am I playing too fast? LOL The vast majority of my games are over by turn 200...
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
I've seen the resources regenerate in one of my games on a giant map, but by then I had Ranger class ships to pick them up with. I never use the Starhawks either.
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
I did not know that.

I was thinking how useless it was that Rangers were survey capable. Guess I was wrong.
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
I've built a Star Hawk before, and my Hero has gotten insanely powerful, something like 28A 94D and 194HP. It's like a giant ulra powerful starbase, with an attack. But I usually don't go to war so it mainly just looks pretty and collects 1% bonuses.
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
"I was thinking how useless it was that Rangers were survey capable. Guess I was wrong."

Yes you were :)

I wound up with something like a 54/43 ranger long before there was anything that big available through the tech tree.
Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top
By the time I could build Rangers, my USS Hero is already far more powerful than they could possibly be. The Ranger does get +1 speed over survey ships, but they have significantly shorter range as well. That may or may not be a problem depending on your map settings.
Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top
Rangers are only worthwhile if the Hero's been destroyed.

~SDC~
Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top
As is, the Phoenix is really only good as a commerce raider, and I think it's stealth ability would need to be improved in order for it to work *WELL* in that role, but since I've never seen the AI build one, I haven't seen how it works. Its stats compare to the submarine in Civ3, so I suspect that it is the game's submarine counterpart.

I've built starhawks on large and larger maps, but more to grab all the little bonuses than to try to build them up into big nasty combat ships. Usually, at that point I let them grab the bonuses so that Hero can focus on tracking down the last ship-boosting anomolies left.

With the reported change to dreadnoughts in 1.03, Rangers become a little more viable when they come along, as they can survey when you're at peace, and have more range/speed than dreadnoughts. They weren't worth it when they were 50% more expensive, though.