Vasari ships too expensive for how much more effective they are

from Sins Forums
I like Vasari better than the other races but if you look at the stats on their ships they're disproportionately more expensive both in terms of credits, metal and crystal but also pop cap compared to their counterparts.

Case in point: Heavy Cruisers:
http://roe.totalgamingnetwork.com/wiki/index.php/Sins_of_a_Solar_Empire/Heavy

Total Health (shield + hull)
1650 TEC - Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
1600 Advent - Destra Crusader
1880 Vasari - Skarovas Enforcer

Skarovas Enforcer has 14% more health than Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
Skarovas Enforcer has 17.5% more health than Destra Crusader


DPS
18 TEC - Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
19 Advent -Destra Crusader
20 Vasari - Skarovas Enforcer

Skarovas Enforcer does 11% more DPS than Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
Skarovas Enforcer does 5% more DPS than Destra Crusader

Credits
500 TEC - Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
525 Advent -Destra Crusader
625 Vasari - Skarovas Enforcer

Skarovas Enforcer costs 25% more credits than Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
Skarovas Enforcer costs 19% more credits than Destra Crusader


Metal
100 TEC - Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
100 Advent -Destra Crusader
150 Vasari - Skarovas Enforcer

Skarovas Enforcer costs 50% more metal than Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
Skarovas Enforcer costs 50% more metal than Destra Crusader


Crystal
70 TEC - Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
90 Advent -Destra Crusader
110 Vasari - Skarovas Enforcer

Skarovas Enforcer costs 57% more crystal than Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
Skarovas Enforcer costs 22% more crystal than Destra Crusader

Pop Cap
10 TEC - Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
10 Advent -Destra Crusader
12 Vasari - Skarovas Enforcer

Skarovas Enforcer costs 20% more population than Kodiak Heavy Cruiser
Skarovas Enforcer costs 20% more population than Destra Crusader


Skavoras Enforcer is an average of 11.875% more effective for an average of 32.875% more expensive.

Note I obtained the average effectiveness number by averaging the DPS and Health percentage results and the costs by averaging the credits, metal, crystal and pop cap costs percentage results so they are may or may not be accurate, the rest of the numbers are pure math though. As for the rest of the stats on the ships they're pretty much identical except for rate of fire and the TEC ship having .5 more armor.
strategy
12,656 views 14 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
but you still like them more then other races!
The whole point is that rather then have balanced units and techs (aka, the exact same with a different name and graphics, which sucks)
Sins actually have completely different units, teches, costs, etc... but OVERALL the game is balanced...

Sure their units cost more, but they get dark armada later on and so on...
And unlike the tec's colonizer capital bonus of +0/1/2 free metal/crystal extractors... their's givese 20/40/60% reduction at cost of buying planet upgrades... a level 3 colonization means you pay thosands less credits and hundreds less crystal and metal...
And they have unmatched phasing tech... and they can build that warping structure allowing their fleets to jump directly from any single one to any other equipped system... (need only one defensive fleet... it can reach anywhere at a moment notice.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

but you still like them more then other races!
The whole point is that rather then have balanced units and techs (aka, the exact same with a different name and graphics, which sucks)
Sins actually have completely different units, teches, costs, etc... but OVERALL the game is balanced...

Sure their units cost more, but they get dark armada later on and so on...
And unlike the tec's colonizer capital bonus of +0/1/2 free metal/crystal extractors... their's givese 20/40/60% reduction at cost of buying planet upgrades... a level 3 colonization means you pay thosands less credits and hundreds less crystal and metal...
And they have unmatched phasing tech... and they can build that warping structure allowing their fleets to jump directly from any single one to any other equipped system... (need only one defensive fleet... it can reach anywhere at a moment notice.
Yes, Dark Fleet is overpowered and should be nerfed. That doesn't mean that they should be forced into fast teching Dark Fleet. TEC don't get forced into fast teching for Insurgency.

Yes, every race has their own bonuses and things that make them better/worse than others in different areas. Does that mean that Vasari ships should about 30% more expensive for 10% more effectiveness?
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Well the thing is Vasari also have have cost reduction tech (slave labour) and pretty good effeciency improvement tech. It is funny but in all 10 of 1 vs1 game (which all I won as Vasari) I was #1 economy wise. Some of it partially due to scouts being able to capture resources, but I am sure other thing play part as well.

The imbalance could be that in the Early game Vasari are weaker, but that is why it is important to expand and tech up very fast

And geez stop whining about dark armada - it is useless tech except if you do not intend to play 30 hour game . For the resources it cost you can end the game two times already.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top


Note I obtained the average effectiveness number by averaging the DPS and Health percentage results and the costs by averaging the credits, metal, crystal and pop cap costs percentage results so they are may or may not be accurate, the rest of the numbers are pure math though. As for the rest of the stats on the ships they're pretty much identical except for rate of fire and the TEC ship having .5 more armor.



The Vasari Heavy Cruiser has two abilities - one of which greatly improves its lifespan - whereas the other race's HCs only have one ability.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
You're also quantifying the difference wrong. The overall strength of the Vasari cruiser is not the average of the advantages, the product would be more appropriate.

If a ship takes twice as much damage and does twice as much damage, it does not do twice as much damage before dying, it does four times as much. They are more appropriately about 23% more powerful than the TEC version based on the above. Being more expensive and taking up more fleet points are likewise multiplying factors in their cost, not cumulative parts of the same factor.

While they are more expensive for their punch, the key to Vasari is mobility. If you're in a random small, odds are you can manage your defenses with two fleets on opposite sides of your empire. If one fleet is overwhelmed, your options as advent or TEC are to attack and try to reciprocate the casualties. Vasari have the option to defend with their full force, regardless of the distance. With the proper capital ship, they can even abort an attack deep in enemy space, or warp in their entire fleet to an enemy stronghold if they can get a marauder back in far enough. Even before phase gates, they are a force built around mobility, get a marauder and you can retreat from a losing battle and catch a fleeing enemy much more easily. With an evacuator, you can halt quite a few ships from jumping away too.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
@OP,

The Skarovas Enforcer also benefits more from Hull and Armor technology because of it's inherently stronger hull than the others, and more benefit from Wave weapons tech because it's base damage is higher, so a fully teched out Enforcer will have a bigger advantage over fully teched out equivalents than a base Enforcer.

Also, it will get price reductions with certain techs to help equal the price and has 2 abilities compared to it's competitors' one ability.

Kodiak: Intercept
Enables the Kodiak to accelerate faster to close into firing range with an opponent.

Destra: Ruthlessness
Deals a bit of damage-over-time.

Skarovas:
1. Reintegration
Periodically initiates full hull repairs.

2. Inertial Field
Slows down enemy ships within attack range(not letting them escape).
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
And unlike the tec's colonizer capital bonus of +0/1/2 free metal/crystal extractors... their's givese 20/40/60% reduction at cost of buying planet upgrades... a level 3 colonization means you pay thosands less credits and hundreds less crystal and metal...


you got the races wrong, vasari colonizer is the worst of the three.
tec, advent, vasari



Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
A point of preference and circumstances. Increased build rate is not something to be ignored. If you're taking that planet from a less than negligible opponent, it may come under counter attack before you can build up a defense. If you can spend 60% less time defending it with an attack fleet, that's a very nice boost. You don't always have the luxury of slowly getting around to planetary defense.

The cost reduction of the Advent is only on planet upgrades, not logistics structures, and the most the TEC version can save you is 1k coin. Purely from a monetary perspective, the advent ability is the best, but the rapid aquisition of materials might be more useful to you than cheaper upgrades giving you a long term boost at a lower cost. Even between those two, a definite order of usefulness is arguable. You can't afford the upgrades all the time, are free resource extractors not better than decreased upgrades you can't purchase?
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
For future reference, the increase in power would be 1.08 * 1.1575 = 25% increase in power.

So yes, they are more expensive in power with no upgrades, but, they have more abilities, they can turn faster (a tiny advantage, but one nonetheless), since they have fewer ships, their shield mitigation would be higher on average, so they would be taking less damage than the other team, they're still only worth 100 xp to the enemy, so your units would feed their capital ships less, etc.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
uhhh, in terms of efficiency Vasari ships are easily 30% more effective for their 30% price... faster, more maneuverable, weapons tend to do better against more types of units... and they scale better too... Especially considering the phase gate technology, the speed technologies and the Dark Armada technology...

(and already stated points)...

More abilities, higher shield mitigation, less XP for the enemy to harvest, you can get resources back from your destroyed ships in combat and otherwise (salvage)...

Personally I find the self-repair ability on Skarovas and Ravaska's more of a problem than the Dark armada research.. it takes a long time to get to Dark Armada, but properly micromanaged a Vasari fleet is a REAL bitch to kill even early in the game with that research.

It IS balanced overall. Easily so. (If you want a material example, it is MUCH easier to get the "No Cap ship" accomplishment playing the Vasari than any other race. Their frigates are significantly tougher, faster and stronger than other races, and the price difference is NOT bad AT ALL when you take it all into account.

You can't PLAY Vasari like your playing TEC. Its a different strategy, but just as valid a one. Making the races more homogenous would be a TERRIBLE thing.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
You're also quantifying the difference wrong. The overall strength of the Vasari cruiser is not the average of the advantages, the product would be more appropriate.If a ship takes twice as much damage and does twice as much damage, it does not do twice as much damage before dying, it does four times as much. They are more appropriately about 23% more powerful than the TEC version based on the above. Being more expensive and taking up more fleet points are likewise multiplying factors in their cost, not cumulative parts of the same factor.While they are more expensive for their punch, the key to Vasari is mobility. If you're in a random small, odds are you can manage your defenses with two fleets on opposite sides of your empire. If one fleet is overwhelmed, your options as advent or TEC are to attack and try to reciprocate the casualties. Vasari have the option to defend with their full force, regardless of the distance. With the proper capital ship, they can even abort an attack deep in enemy space, or warp in their entire fleet to an enemy stronghold if they can get a marauder back in far enough. Even before phase gates, they are a force built around mobility, get a marauder and you can retreat from a losing battle and catch a fleeing enemy much more easily. With an evacuator, you can halt quite a few ships from jumping away too.


Winner of this thread.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
btw: the kortuls main weapons (beams) are placed on its sides, to realy get the most out of it you have to place it inbetween a group of targets.
So its beams will zap all over the place and create all kinds of problems for you opponent.

Don't let it sit around using only its forward weapons. They suck compared to the beams.
If youre looking for a "stare the mdown" type of ship go for the desolator, at level 6 it will gain semi god mode too.

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
Top 10 worst QQ threads ever. Vasari are awesome. I thought they stunk in early game, but it is not true at all! One lab and you have access to assailants, siege, and repair station! You can go to town on almost anyone off the bat. Delaying Imerial labs for Weapons lab does work for Vasari like no one else.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Vasari rock, even if they are a bit slow at first. they are the epitome of "its not how strong it is, but how you use it". they have certain abilities and mobility that the other races simply cant compete with.