Okay, I give up (re: Illuminator/LRMs)

LRMs everywhere

I was playing Vasari against an Advent player tonight. I had one level 7 Devastator, one Level 5 Devastator, a carrier for repair, approx. 30 of their LRM equivalents (starts with A), 15 or so of their Cobalt equivalents. I was also packing a bunch of cruiser carriers (about 15) in a separate fleet so I could keep them out of trouble. A few of the Kodiak equivalents too, but not very many (had only recently teched these up). I was the most powerful or second most powerful research player, I had all the hull + armor upgrades, and had made it a point to make my own LRMs powerful through the entire Vasari phase tree. I was #1 in the fleet count under Military.

I got absolutely wrecked by a player with 70 Illuminators and a lv1 capital.

Before I had thought that you could simply shred LRMs with fighters - but not today. All my carriers had fighters save two, and the Illuminators just kept on beaming.

I know the Advent are supposed to have good long-range frigates, but this was absolutely ridiculous. By the time I had destroyed roughly a quarter to a fifth of the Illuminators, all three of my caps were gone, the Illuminators had fried my Kodiak equivs, half of my LRM equivs, and a couple of my carriers. By the time half of the enemy fleet was destroyed, my fleet numbers were pretty much 0 (I had sent in reinforcements, but the original fleet was probably destroyed in full).

So maybe Illuminators aren't overpowered in the early game, but I'd ask someone to take a look at them farther down the tech tree. That fleet ended up retreating because someone was attacking it in another system. It was really that bad.
38,385 views 70 replies
Reply #2 Top
use scouts to kill any LRM next time
Reply #3 Top
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/?forumid=455&aid=177017#1462672

in that thread


use scouts to kill any LRM next time


so like i'm supposed to use a non-combat ship to counter a giant frigate shooting space lasers when its description says "Strong vs: None" this is very intuitive
Reply #4 Top
please post the replay/recording of the game you are referring to
Reply #5 Top
I've played two games online and both games were won by someone massing just Illuminators. It's a trend that's turned me off to online play. The game ceases to involve any strategy when the key to winning is simply massing one type of ship faster than the next player.
Reply #6 Top

please post the replay/recording of the game you are referring to


hi it's in the reply i posted ten minutes before your post

EDIT: Would there be any interest in a competitive/multiplayer balance pack or minimod?
Reply #7 Top
Im interested in comparing vasari scout to illuminator

costs and supply
illuminator :credits 350, metal 50, crystal 40 and 6 supply.
scout: credits 225, metal 20 and 3 supply.

hp/sp and armour
illuminator: 500 hp/500 sp, 2 armour.
scout: 425hp/225sp, 1.5 armour.

damage
illuminator hitting 3 scouts in different angles (it has 3 beams) does 11.7 dps (yes under 4 dps to each scout)
scout attacking illuminator does 8 dps.

I just did a comparison I didnt state anything else.

fast links to actual stats of the ships.
http://roe.totalgamingnetwork.com/wiki/index.php/Sins_of_a_Solar_Empire/Scout
http://roe.totalgamingnetwork.com/wiki/index.php/Sins_of_a_Solar_Empire/Long_Ranged


Reply #8 Top
Hey, I'm not a know-it-all on this game, so this is just a guess, but it's an educated guess: If the fighters are supposed to counter LRM frigates, I suppose you didn't have enough carriers. He had 70 LRMs, you had 15 cruiser carriers to counter them with, plus 30 LRM frigs. That would be a total of 45 ships to counter what he had. I suppose you'd need something approaching his number of ships. Bottom line, it sounds like he just had a hell of a lot of ships. Again, though, this is just a guess - I'm sure it was a frustrating experience.
Reply #9 Top
Well, that's true, but I was under the assumption the fighters would rip through them, or at least do a decent amount of damage. With them having 2 armor, I shouldn't need to bring any more carriers. Instead, the things just wouldn't die and the fact that it took so many ships to bring them down is mind-boggling.

edit: Also, lv5 cap carrier = 4 fighters, each light carrier can field 2 fighters, so it was more than that, about evening it out.
Reply #10 Top
yeah he did have hell of a lot of ships :) Illuminator has crappy range, you can kite them with all carrier fleet, should work out OK!
Reply #11 Top
another comparison, illuminator compared to sentinel.

costs and supply
illuminator :credits 350, metal 50, crystal 40 and 6 supply.
sentinel: credits 400, metal 50, crystal 30 and 5 supply.

hp/sp and armour
illuminator: 500 hp/500 sp, 2 armour.
scout: 875hp/550sp, 3.5 armour.

damage
illuminator hitting 3 sentinels in different angles (it has 3 beams) does 15.99 dps (yes under 5.33 dps to each sentinel)
sentinel attacking 4 illuminators in different angles(it has 4 sides firing) does 20 dps (5 dps to each illuminator).

I just did a comparison I didnt state anything else.

fast links to actual stats of the ships.
http://roe.totalgamingnetwork.com/wiki/index.php/Sins_of_a_Solar_Empire/Flak
http://roe.totalgamingnetwork.com/wiki/index.php/Sins_of_a_Solar_Empire/Long_Ranged
Reply #12 Top

I was playing Vasari against an Advent player tonight. I had one level 7 Devastator, one Level 5 Devastator, a carrier for repair, approx. 30 of their LRM equivalents (starts with A), 15 or so of their Cobalt equivalents. I was also packing a bunch of cruiser carriers (about 15) in a separate fleet so I could keep them out of trouble. A few of the Kodiak equivalents too, but not very many (had only recently teched these up). I was the most powerful or second most powerful research player, I had all the hull + armor upgrades, and had made it a point to make my own LRMs powerful through the entire Vasari phase tree. I was #1 in the fleet count under Military.

I got absolutely wrecked by a player with 70 Illuminators and a lv1 capital.

Before I had thought that you could simply shred LRMs with fighters - but not today. All my carriers had fighters save two, and the Illuminators just kept on beaming.

I know the Advent are supposed to have good long-range frigates, but this was absolutely ridiculous. By the time I had destroyed roughly a quarter to a fifth of the Illuminators, all three of my caps were gone, the Illuminators had fried my Kodiak equivs, half of my LRM equivs, and a couple of my carriers. By the time half of the enemy fleet was destroyed, my fleet numbers were pretty much 0 (I had sent in reinforcements, but the original fleet was probably destroyed in full).

So maybe Illuminators aren't overpowered in the early game, but I'd ask someone to take a look at them farther down the tech tree. That fleet ended up retreating because someone was attacking it in another system. It was really that bad.


hi there i am a experienced player (was in beta]
in beta it was the case :carriers to counter lrm
however i found out in the full game thats not so effective
here is my suggestion
dont build so many carriers just build 4 or 5 and 2 cap carriers
focus on building little frigates{cobalts} remembers FRIGATES are your frontline ships
the more you have more difficult it becomes for attacking fleet to destroy all of them
and build 2-3 shipyards to a nearby planet dont build shipyards on your frontline planets and try to save rescources to spawn ships if you do this i am sure the next time you get attacked by such a fleet you wil not be so easy defeated
greetz
Reply #13 Top

yeah he did have hell of a lot of ships Illuminator has crappy range, you can kite them with all carrier fleet, should work out OK!


Illuminator has crappy range? What game are you playing? The only way that would work is if you warped in 65 carriers and then right clicked around the gravity well for thirty minutes as they take out the Illuminators. That seems like a silly counter.
Reply #14 Top
oops meant sentinel in my 2nd comparison under hp
Reply #15 Top


Illuminator has crappy range? What game are you playing? The only way that would work is if you warped in 65 carriers and then right clicked around the gravity well for thirty minutes as they take out the Illuminators. That seems like a silly counter.


It has about half the range of LRM if I recall correctly.

Reply #16 Top
red: The armor on the cap carriers is pretty low and the Illuminators shredded my Cobalts pretty quickly. I can't imagine that working. I had lots of resources (remember, I had enough to max out most of the military tech tree) and phase lanes to one jump away from the battle. Even if I kept sending in my Returning Armada reinforcements, they'd just never quit blowing my ships up.
Reply #17 Top
illuminator range 4800, light frigate range 3500.

LRM range 8500.
Reply #18 Top
Just to clarify i just watched a 5v5 replay with Carbon in it and freelancer is this the one you are talking about because i can tell you what you did wrong if this is the correct replay.
Reply #19 Top

I was playing Vasari against an Advent player tonight. I had one level 7 Devastator, one Level 5 Devastator, a carrier for repair, approx. 30 of their LRM equivalents (starts with A), 15 or so of their Cobalt equivalents. I was also packing a bunch of cruiser carriers (about 15) in a separate fleet so I could keep them out of trouble. A few of the Kodiak equivalents too, but not very many (had only recently teched these up). I was the most powerful or second most powerful research player, I had all the hull + armor upgrades, and had made it a point to make my own LRMs powerful through the entire Vasari phase tree. I was #1 in the fleet count under Military.

I got absolutely wrecked by a player with 70 Illuminators and a lv1 capital.

Before I had thought that you could simply shred LRMs with fighters - but not today. All my carriers had fighters save two, and the Illuminators just kept on beaming.

I know the Advent are supposed to have good long-range frigates, but this was absolutely ridiculous. By the time I had destroyed roughly a quarter to a fifth of the Illuminators, all three of my caps were gone, the Illuminators had fried my Kodiak equivs, half of my LRM equivs, and a couple of my carriers. By the time half of the enemy fleet was destroyed, my fleet numbers were pretty much 0 (I had sent in reinforcements, but the original fleet was probably destroyed in full).

So maybe Illuminators aren't overpowered in the early game, but I'd ask someone to take a look at them farther down the tech tree. That fleet ended up retreating because someone was attacking it in another system. It was really that bad.


Wow, what happened? Did you micro, or not, and did your opponent micro, or not? That may have helped. BTW, what cap-ship was the Advent force using?

A Progenitor Mothership may have been healing the Illuminator fleet on a constant basis and diluting your attacks so that they don't die.

A Rapture Battlecruiser could've made your ships damage themselves from their own attacks.

A Radiance Battleship may have used Animosity to divert all your attacks to it, and/or it may have used it's Cleansing Brilliance death-ray to obliterate almost all of your frigates(of all kinds) in a single shot!

Try taking out the cap-ship ASAP. Then, the Illuminator blob should fall to your superior force.
Reply #20 Top
still not sure whether i've watched the correct play but the first initial fight with the illuminator blob was about 60 illums, carbon jumped in his fleet in dribs and drabs and engaged like wise 1 of his caps was already down before all of his fleet was in the fight, the first 3-5 minutes of the fight carbon wasn't micromanaging his ships at all. Your research by this point was still abit screwed up you hadn't researched anything into hull repair or hull increase hit points. After your first few ships had gone down you then for some crazy reason started jumping more ships in completely unsupported - ever heard of the "phrase run away and live to fight another day"?

To counter his illuminator spam it's pretty simple all you need to do is take down his supporting cap ships ASAP as the above poster has mentioned then split your fleet up into 2 sub fleets telling each fleet to target one ship (this drops them faster than telling all ships to target one individual ship) so your always attacking 2 ships at a time. It's all about research and having enough fluff for them to shoot through first.

Another way to counter the frigate spam is have FIGHTERS (you were using bombers) with these upgraded and with about 15 fighters you can pretty much 1 strafe any frigate, thats 3 frigates going down every few seconds.

Nothing needs a nerf it's just players need to know this isn't your typical RTS, it requires tactics and having your enemy well scouted, you should have known that at the begining of the game he was an illum spammer and should have prepared a fleet accordingly, you can have MORE THAN ONE BIG FLEET at a time you certainly had the resources for it towards the end game.
Reply #21 Top
It's also worth bearing in mind that the Advent LRM does 'AntiCapital' damage, so swarms of them are very good at taking down Capital ships.
Reply #22 Top
Try taking out the cap-ship ASAP. Then, the Illuminator blob should fall to your superior force.


I targeted his Progenitor early on and destroyed it. He had only siege ships, no repair frigates or caps.

I'm pretty sure I teched up all the hull stuff as well as the armor. I made sure to get the armor right after I grabbed the last LRM upgrade.

After your first few ships had gone down you then for some crazy reason started jumping more ships in completely unsupported - ever heard of the "phrase run away and live to fight another day"?


I really didn't give a damn at that point and I had Returning Armada so I decided simply to throw in all my free ships to try to stop him there.

you should have known that at the begining of the game he was an illum spammer and should have prepared a fleet accordingly


Hahaha, what? He was in a completely other system, I had two enemies on my back at that point and had my entire fleet tied up in that engagement when he decided to waltz in. Note the fact that I queued up as many carriers as I could support quite a few times and sent them over "in dribs and drabs" for the reason I said in the OP: expected them to tear up the Illums. That along with the caps I had should have been enough, period. It shouldn't take spam to beat spam.
Reply #23 Top
Ehh so you expect to win with an inferior fleet and inferior tactics? Because thats what this sounds like. Well actually your fleet might have been slightly better, but you not engaging him with full force, made the odds uneven, and that SHOULD lead to your defeat, assuming your fighters would destroy him made it even worse for you. You should jump your whole fleet to the fight at the same time, or RETREAT if it seems like it isnt going to end well, regroup at one of your planets with some reinforcements and try again. Seems like you just saw 70 illums are were like "fuck this" and decided to whine about it on the forums instead of actually thinking about what went wrong.

I do agree that people spamming one ship isn't fun for anyone, but it doesn't mean everything should be nerfed. Theres currently posts about almost every single one of the ships complaining theyre overpowered and need to be nerfed. First it was siege ships, then carriers, then LRM's now it seems to be turning into just general Advent hatred. I bet someone is going to post about Cobalt light frigates being overpowered soon.
Reply #24 Top
Maybe you should watch the replay before trolling. I had my entire fleet there after one of my caps was gone. Only after it took out my entire fleet did I send in the rest of what I had in reserve.

Assuming your fighters would destroy him made it even worse for you


Well, then, what DOES destroy him? Fighters don't work? Level seven caps get destroyed in thirty seconds? Kodiak equivalents get blown up? So on one hand we have people saying "oh spam XXX" and on the other we have "OH NO SPAM IS NOT WORKING YOU SHOULD NOT SPAM LOL USE MICRO". The fact is, neither spamming nor micro would have beat this guy and neither one are acceptable solutions for a 4X or 4X hybrid game. Next time I'll send in a hundred fucking scouts and see if that works, but somehow I'm getting the picture people don't actually know what they're talking about when it comes to countering spam, as I've gotten five or six different suggestions in this very thread.
Reply #25 Top
Watched replay. The Illuminator guy had 70ish illus, 2 motherships and a handful of guardians. The fleet was tightly packed in guardian shield bubbles. OP had a mixed fleet with few hard counters (handful of fighter squadrons) and NO antimatter, shield or ability disruption (Interference not researched, no Subverters).

OP's capship zergs ahead and dies instantly, forces dribble in, carrier group gets too close. Fighters distracted by bombers and other targets.

I wouldn't call nerf to Illus based on this replay. Lessons learned? Scout the opposition (or ask allies to scout), bring disruption vs Advent.