Heavy cruiser and close combat capital ship spam > all?

I think heavy cruiser spam (enforcers, kodiak, etc) and kol battleships beat anything and they are the only kind of attack ships you need in a fleet. This is the case in all the games I've played so far. Anything else just dies vs heavy cruiser spam. Can anyone give a situation where they beat it with another kind of ship?
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Reply #1 Top
Plenty I lost 100 kodiaks to an advent fleet. Support cruisers owned the hell out of me, along with the capital ship abilities. I got totally hosed. Spam anything = bad D:
Reply #2 Top
Heavy cruisers are great and all, but the lower number of ships makes them weak to paraylzer-type cruisers. They are also more vulnerable to bombers than frigates are.

They also can't beat planetary defenses efficiently; they have to come within range.

Economically they are expensive. Triple the resource cost of a light frigate, and metal/crystal are a lot more valuable than credits.

The Kol is excellent, but it lacks any antimatter draining abilities like the Devastator and Radiance have. Inability to neutralize abilities presents problems. Battles are much easier when you arn't facing Dunov tag-teams or Cleansing Brilliance spam.

The superiority of Kodiaks and Kols is largely due to that the AI will never be as good at using abilities as players are.

It really doesn't matter how superior your frigate fleet is if they are all getting taunted onto a super-vengeanced Radiance.

Reply #3 Top
hmm for vasari they are nearly free (you can get 3-4 phase stabilizers within 35 minutes and dark armada within 45-55 with only 4-5 planets).
Reply #4 Top
If you arn't fighting much.
Reply #5 Top
I think you need to play more MP games. Bombers and LRMs will absolutely destroy that fleet.
Reply #6 Top

Bombers and lrm, combined with disablers will wipe the floor with a fleet like that.

that is, if you ever get it going in the first place, such a fleet costs a massive ammount of resources, both in construction and research
Reply #7 Top
If he has so many Cap Ships, I think you can afford something like that >_>
Reply #8 Top
.. what?

Aren't frigates way better than any attack cruiser?

The support and ability sort of cruisers are great but for killing things it seems frigates > all.

Hell it seems if you want to kill things it's better to not waste money on cap ships and research for more cap ships. Just get a swarm of frigates. :|

Most of the time i feel it's stupid to waste money on research. You can spend tens and tens of thousands of resources on resources. That'll buy you a ton of frigates..
Reply #9 Top
The heavy cruiser is different than the other cruisers... It's rather brutally effective at direct combat.

Spamming frigates is well and good, but researching the supply techs will cut into your economy. More frigates gives you a temporary advantage, but you have to make a pretty big dent to prevent your opponent from replacing losses faster than you.
Reply #10 Top
The heavy cruiser is different than the other cruisers... It's rather brutally effective at direct combat.


Which is why I have long advocated swapping the colony "frigate" and the heavy "cruiser" to be the colony cruiser and heavy frigate :D

Reply #11 Top

Which is why I have long advocated swapping the colony "frigate" and the heavy "cruiser" to be the colony cruiser and heavy frigate



Yeah, lets wait until tier 4 before you can colonize planets.
Reply #12 Top
Clearly, first colony frigate should also be free. Needs more intensity early on rather than a complete snooze fest. =P

Some frigates have more fire power than heavy cruisers.
Reply #13 Top

Yeah, lets wait until tier 4 before you can colonize planets.


Um... what? WTF are you talking about?

I'm not talking about a change in roles, only in naming / construction positioning.
Reply #14 Top
So you suggest that we should be able to build colony cruisers we at the start of the game? Ok, that makes more sense. When you just say "colony cruiser", none of the cruisers are available when you start so it's plain to see how I could have misunderstood. (No WTF's needed)
Reply #15 Top
When you just say "colony cruiser", none of the cruisers are available when you start so it's plain to see how I could have misunderstood.


I don't see where your coming from -- hence the WTF.

Think of it this way: just as you automatically took my statement one way, not even seeing the other way, I automatically saw it that other way, never seeing the way you see it... not even now, I'm blind that way.
Reply #16 Top
I was rushed by a fleet that was full of heavy cruisers/main battle ships and i found that disabling them (Vasari subverters) totally ran in my favor. I had half the fleet they did, but with their ships totally disabled (chaining even) my fleet thrashed them in no time. They were attacking my homeworld and aside from having my fleet I had a few hangar defenses with bombers on hand. In short: ships disabled, bomber rush, fleet support > head-on tactics.
Reply #17 Top
As others have said, tons of bomber squadrons even by themselves would pwn your fleet. With 30 bomber squadrons I can take down a level 5 capital ship in roughly 20 seconds or less. In that time, you could take down 1 of my carrier cruisers, maybe 2 if you are focus firing (due to mitigation). After the caps are all dead, short work can be made of your cruisers too. Combine that with splash damage missile frigates and you'd be in big trouble.
Reply #18 Top
Flak Frigates...?
Reply #19 Top

When you just say "colony cruiser", none of the cruisers are available when you start so it's plain to see how I could have misunderstood.


I don't see where your coming from -- hence the WTF.

Think of it this way: just as you automatically took my statement one way, not even seeing the other way, I automatically saw it that other way, never seeing the way you see it... not even now, I'm blind that way.


He means that the colony ship is more like a cruiser while the Heavy cruiser is more like a frigate. As in this game they clearly state in the tutorial, that cruisers are more advanced ships ment for supporting other ships and generaly for purposes other than strait foward combat. The heavy cruiser defies that role and functions directly as a heavy attack ship, assumeing more of a a frigates role.

Now back to the main point. Diversed fleets function alot better than spamming. Frigate spamming on small maps can be deadly, but if you fail to defeat your enemy, you will suffer from a major resorce handicap, and the enemy may have already obtained a capital ship, and leveled it several times while you suffered heavy casualties.

Heavy Cruisers function best when supported by support ships. The Tec Heavy cruisers are ment to take a beating, and they can take even more of a beating when they have command ships boosting their sheild restore rates, and increaseing their attack damage. Pluss comand ships help to focus your units attacks while you are busy manageing resorces. (Their skill which directs nearby ships to attack the target of the skill)
Reply #20 Top

Flak Frigates...?


The OP did not mention his fleet make-up of consisting of any frigates period, much less flak frigates. And yes, flak frigates would be a major problem for my counter to the OP, but like I said, that isn't the situation he set up for us to respond to.
Reply #21 Top
Though I don't have that much experience multiplayer, I imagine that ditching the railgun ability for the flak ability on the Kol battleships would be a good idea to protect against fighters, since honestly even more up close single target firepower would be overkill. Lockdown tactics, though, I expect would still be devastatingly effective.

As for antimatter draining, those abilities are on the mainline battleships anyway aren't they? Though I honestly think for the Vasari, the desolator is better for sheer firepower due to its phase missile swarm ability.
Reply #22 Top
I wish I knew how to post replays, and I would post the one where I scouted out that my opponent had built 2, then 3 of the Tec battleships (Kol?). I was Tec also, had a Kol, the shield restore one, and the carrier. I was ready for his rush (in this game, is that a rush?), and using planet defences too, won the battle without even comming near losing a ship. It was a testament to combined arms in this game.

He was obviously new to this game, probably use to all the other rts out there where spamming/rushing wins. But it's only a mater of time till he discovers LRMs and tries again ;)


Reply #23 Top
When you just say "colony cruiser", none of the cruisers are available when you start so it's plain to see how I could have misunderstood. I don't see where your coming from -- hence the WTF.Think of it this way: just as you automatically took my statement one way, not even seeing the other way, I automatically saw it that other way, never seeing the way you see it... not even now, I'm blind that way. He means that the colony ship is more like a cruiser while the Heavy cruiser is more like a frigate. As in this game they clearly state in the tutorial, that cruisers are more advanced ships ment for supporting other ships and generaly for purposes other than strait foward combat. The heavy cruiser defies that role and functions directly as a heavy attack ship, assumeing more of a a frigates role.Now back to the main point. Diversed fleets function alot better than spamming. Frigate spamming on small maps can be deadly, but if you fail to defeat your enemy, you will suffer from a major resorce handicap, and the enemy may have already obtained a capital ship, and leveled it several times while you suffered heavy casualties. Heavy Cruisers function best when supported by support ships. The Tec Heavy cruisers are ment to take a beating, and they can take even more of a beating when they have command ships boosting their sheild restore rates, and increaseing their attack damage. Pluss comand ships help to focus your units attacks while you are busy manageing resorces. (Their skill which directs nearby ships to attack the target of the skill)


"As in this game they clearly state in the tutorial, that cruisers are more advanced ships ment for supporting other ships and generaly for purposes other than strait foward combat."

Heavy Cruisers are advanced ships. They and only they have exclusive rights over armor-penetrating Composite weaponry, even though this means short range. They also have special combat abilities designed to help themselves(but no one else) out in battle(Intercept, Reintegration, Inertial Field and Ruthlessness). In case of the Vasari and Advent HCs, they also use non-mainstream expensive weapons that no other frigate, cruiser, fighter or bomber uses - Wave Cannons for the Enforcer and Plasma for the Crusader. Those weapons are capital-only until HCs are unlocked.

Heavies are indeed helped the most by support cruisers. The TEC Kodiak can have it's target paralyzed by a Robotics Cruiser and itself repaired whenever necessary. The Vasari Subverter can give nearby Enforcers a 25% chance to shoot through their targets' shields and reduce those targets' shield mitigation by 10%. And the Iconus Guardian of course can take 33% of the damage off of a Crusader and repel the enemy if they have to retreat.

But heavy cruisers alone will get smashed. Bombers do their maximum possible damage against the VeryHeavy armor used by HCs and orbital structures. And short range means LRMs can shoot and run before HCs can even enter range. Even turret defenses can put up a fight if engaged by heavies alone.

Ironically, it's Light Frigates which take up support roles in the later game after they gain their antimatter-stealing/disabling/sabotaging abilities. With those abilities, their speed, and anti-heavy weapons, they become dedicated support-ship destroyers.
Reply #24 Top
this seems like alot of non-sense. a mixed fleet, when managed properly, will wipe the floor with any single ship strategy. bomber strike craft are the natural counter to heavy cruisers and even a relatively modest fleet of carrier cruisers (let alone a high level carrier cap ship) can destroy a huge number of heavy cruisers in just a couple of minutes. if you add in skirmish frigates to take out any flaks the enemy might be screening his fleet with you basically can't lose. heavy cruisers are also pretty terrible against defensive platforms in a system you might be trying to attack, they get pretty well torn apart by turret platforms and hangar defenses loaded with bombers.
Reply #25 Top
In the case of TEC, I think Kodiak spam works well if you also split your time with Flak Frigates(added bonus of sharing weapon tree). Otherwise if someone were to have a carrier fleet with lots of heavy bombers your Kols and Kodiaks will get trashed. Although from what i have seen not too many people make carrier fleets.