A brown eyed girl? Do you remember when we used to sing Sha la la la la la la la la la la dee dah...Just like that?



~Zoo

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......no.

I know that's a song, but unfortunately, I can't remember the reference. I suck!

ALL of these sources are cited in the Eiberg paper we're discussing and Wikipedia is NOT a very scientific source for information.

Cavalli-Sforza LL, Menozzi P, Piazza A (1994). The History and
geography of Human genes. Princeton University Press, Princeton

Eiberg H, Troelsen J, Nielsen M, Annemette M, Mengel-From J, Kjaer KW,
Hansen L (2008). Blue eye color in humans may be caused by a perfectly
associated founder mutation in a regulatory in a regulatory element
located within the HERC2 gene inhibiting OCA2 expression. Hum Genet (Epub
ahead of print).

Frudakis T, Terravainen T, Thomas M (2007) Multilocus OCA2 genotypes
specify human iris colors. Hum Genet 122:311–326.
doi:10.1007/s00439-007-0401-8

Rebbeck TR, Kanetsky PA, Walker AH, Holmes R, Halpern AC, Schuchter LM,
Elder DE, Guerry D (2002). P gene as an inherited biomarker of human
eye color. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 11:782–784
[quote]



I thought you said you were looking for the truth? I guess truth doesn't matter to everyone...but for some of us we desire to know truth. Have you ever heard the Persian Proverb...."The man who speaks the truth is always at ease."

"We know the truth not only by the reason but also by the heart." Blaise Pascal



well......it would be nice. I'd rather be right than wrong. What kind of a question is that anyhow?  :NOTSURE: 



You don't care if you're right or you don't care if I'm right?



You know Ock. I absolutely agree with you here. I don't believe in God because of "feelings." In fact I harp on this all the time to other believers. It's not our feelings we should go by. Our feelings and emotions can deceive us. So I agree.

I absolutely have tested out his word and the principles behind it. I've spent years in research and have come to the conclusion that everything he said has either come true, is relevant to my life or is going to come true in the future based on what has transpired in the past.



hahahah well I've got brown eyes to Cedarbird....who knows maybe we're related....  

Why does it matter so much who is right?

I thought you said you were looking for the truth?

I think Asaxygirl meant why is it so important that others recognize YOUR conclusion as THE conclusion? Many people have extensively tested things. You wish us to recognize your extensive tests as conclusive, but you do not allow such conclusive testing to yield the same results for others when those results do not agree with yours. That's a pretty stellar display of self righteousness, is it not?

I absolutely have tested out his word and the principles behind it. I've spent years in research and have come to the conclusion that everything he said has either come true, is relevant to my life or is going to come true in the future based on what has transpired in the past.

Yes, you've mentioned this before. Could you describe your research and tests for me? I've been curious, but I haven't asked. This is at least the second or third time I've seen it mentioned, so I'm finally asking. What tests. What method. What evidence. What conclusion. Well, you can describe the conclusion if you feel it's beyond what seems obvious your conclusion already is.

Call me another name, if it makes you feel better but it's not true. I'm all for testing and results. I think I answered this on my blog just now.

It's not about me Ock. It's not MY truth. While I do care that you find the truth, I fully realize it's your own personal quest to do so. I just want to encourage you to look at both sides that's all. Did you check out Answers in Genesis? Did you at least give it a glance over? Or are you just going to dismiss it as a bunch of crock? Be truthful. Remember I went to public schools all my life. I ONLY got your side in school. But, yet, I managed to come out of it with the opposite viewpoint or interpretation of the evidence.

I love Francis Schaeffer. He was a great philosopher and had some really deep thoughts and truths that are timeless. Check him out sometime when you have time. He said:

Truth demands confrontation; loving confrontation, but confrontation nevertheless."

— Francis Schaeffer

BTW....did you ever read the "Case For Christ?" It's all about research and he will give you many of the same answers I'd give you less my own personal journey.

Yes, you've mentioned this before. Could you describe your research and tests for me? I've been curious, but I haven't asked. This is at least the second or third time I've seen it mentioned, so I'm finally asking. What tests. What method. What evidence. What conclusion. Well, you can describe the conclusion if you feel it's beyond what seems obvious your conclusion already is.

I'm not calling you a name. I'm describing your actions and then I'm looking in the dictionary and finding there is a word for people that take those actions. That's association, not name calling.

I want your tests and your evidence - only because you repeatedly mention them as if they bolster your argument.

In a trial of Bob against Fred, Bob says Dave said something that would make it clear Fred was wrong. The judge would not accept this without further information, and neither will I. State what your truth is, state the tests you used to prove it, and we will all be converted provided your proof is testable and repeatable. C'mon...if you're so sure, go for it. You could be singlehandedly responsible for my conversion. The fact is you haven't any evidence that isn't subjective.

The course way of saying all this is "put up or shut up." I've been patient with your claims. YOU are responsible for backing them up. You say to me (paraphrased) "Is Asaxygirl telling you that? Are YOU a scientist?" And then you quote me everyone but yourself - your son, books, papers, other theologians, all the while claiming YOU have done research - YOU have tested. Ok...let's hear it. You have my attention.

Me and my baby girl have blue eyes. The boys got their daddy's gorgeous eyes...hazel rimmed in blue with green bursts.

I feel like I'm off topic now, haha.

I feel like I'm off topic now, haha.

The course way of saying all this is "put up or shut up." I've been patient with your claims. YOU are responsible for backing them up. You say to me (paraphrased) "Is Asaxygirl telling you that? Are YOU a scientist?" And then you quote me everyone but yourself - your son, books, papers, other theologians, all the while claiming YOU have done research - YOU have tested. Ok...let's hear it. You have my attention.

Usul, we have cricket sign the likes of which even God has never seen.

You gots to remember, Ock, we're on the other side of the world from these schmucks. They're like 8 hours behind us.

Not that I'm saying she's not just avoiding, I'm just pre-empting her excuse.

Nah- I'd say she's avoiding.  I saw her on the site between the time he asked for porof of research and now. 

BTW, I have blue eyes, and so does my daughter.  I assumed that she would have brown eyes, though, because my husband (and all his family) have brown eyes which are supposed to be dominant.  Genetics are an odd thing!

Genetics appeals to me a lot - I wish I knew more about it. As soon as I retire, going to school in all sorts of scientific areas that fascinate me is high on my agenda. Astronomy, physics, chemistry of various sorts (primarily organic). I'd love to learn more about genetics, but if I have to go through a bunch of biology first (which one would assume) that might wave me off. My wife is the biologist, and that's enough biology for me

I'm not avoiding anything guys. I've been so busy, on and off JU and as you know Ock I've been answering my own blogs lately as Karma also knows. And no, Karma...not avoiding at all. Sometimes admittedly I ignore things on purpose because I think..."what's the point? But that's not the case here although I have some of the same feelings.

There's nothing I can tell you Ock that will make you believe. I can't convince nor covert you. That's not my job. Just the way you taunt me shows you really have no interest in anything I say on this subject. Repeatedly all over JU I've given reasons why I believe. In fact, I've even written a blog myself on why so if you'd care to go back and dig up one of my oldies feel free.

What I can say is that I do not believe what I do blindly. It's not a blind faith by any means. Nor are we called to believe blindly. He literally changed my life. The Hate, anger, selfishness that once ruled my life is completely gone. I'm not perfect, I still have a ways to go in other areas of my life, but there has been tremendous change in my life. I've seen the same with my husband and my sons. My husband came to Christ at 30 years of age. He was a Catholic and altar boy in his youth.

The story of Paul is a great example (Acts 9). We all have some sort of a "Damascus" road experience. While those around him did not see or understand what was happening to Paul, they could see the changed life. He changed from literally murdering the early church to becoming part of them. A changed life is the greatest example of God working in a believer's life. I've seen some quite powerful transformations including my own.

I have so many stories I could tell you Ock that are just amazing but I don't really think you're interested. Each story would take time to tell. God is defintely alive and well and makes himself known to those that are his. I've had outsiders see God working in my life, people who were or are not Christians yet had no explanations for what they saw transpire. Some attributed it to luck or coincidence and some even God in the loosest of terms. But they saw it.

And I completely understand where you are coming from. It's like being around happy people when you're most miserable. They bug the heck out of you. They would be so happy while you're so miserable you couldn't stand to be around them. Isn't that how it is Ock?

I believe Ock you think Christians are walking idiots and that if a Christian had a brain cell it would die from lonliness. I know that. But you can't say that I haven't challenged you over and over. I believe you're on a quest to refute Christianity but I would like to challenge you when you're finished and find that you cannot do so, at least look at it with some objectivity. I'll give you the same challenge I give everyone. Why not give the God of the Bible one year of complete objective study finding out all you can fairly and honestly from that camp. What's one year of your life out of say 70? Eternity is a long long time. Why not make sure you have given it your best shot?

Is it your mind telling you there is no Christ or is it your will? Becoming a Christian is rather ego-shattering. He tells us to trust him. That is a huge and hard first step and one that I have no regret in taking.

Repeatedly all over JU I've given reasons why I believe.

I'm sure you have plenty of reasons why you believe. That's not up for debate. Who am I to tell you what to believe?

But I will discuss things you state as facts. You stated you have done research and tests. Is it a fact that you have? If so, I'd like to hear about it. What are these tests?

And I completely understand where you are coming from. It's like being around happy people when you're most miserable. They bug the heck out of you. They would be so happy while you're so miserable you couldn't stand to be around them. Isn't that how it is Ock?

I was only miserable once in my life over a relationship with a woman that went south. The happy people made me feel better, not annoyed. To this day, even if I feel the slightest bit down for whatever reason, happy people make me feel better. So no, that isn't how it is.

I believe Ock you think Christians are walking idiots and that if a Christian had a brain cell it would die from lonliness.

You believe wrong. I, in fact, do not think Christians are walking idiots. I do not think any group of people are anything. That would be prejudice, and I'm not a fan of prejudice. In other words, you're projecting.

As for studying the bible, I have studied it. There's a lot of really good stuff in it. Very valuable things that I still use. I am a big fan of the golden rule, for example.

But to your challenge, I will say this. Maybe I will, and maybe I won't, but the following is a fact:

If I do, and become completely converted, and live the rest of my life in ecstasy, and everything goes completely right for me until the day I die of a ripe old age (quietly and without suffering)....it doesn't prove a thing about the existence of god.

Right!

But if God is real, that's not what would happen anyway. The closer you grow to God the more strain Satan puts on you.

By the way, I have hazel eyes, so I don't know what that makes us. Probably in-laws or something.

Well that sucks.

~Zoo

Not really. Even if Satan takes everything you have, you still have God. And God is all that matters. Everything else only matters because it matters to God.

You're guaranteed to always have enough to eat. You're guaranteed to never have a test you cannot handle.

am I? Well then I can only go by what I hear you say and how you project yourself to me over the net. Obviously it's not always the best way to get to know someone but the written word can be quite powerful.



it doesn't quite work like that. So if that's your criteria...it ain't going to happen. Besides it really doesn't matter if you believe in a God or not. If there is a God, your belief or non-belief isn't going to change things except for where you spend eternity.

Suffering? Remember JOb? How about Paul? He suffered. The Apostles suffered something fierce. God doesn't promise us a bed of roses, he promises us that he will be right there with us when we go thru trials and suffering. Jesus suffered more than any but yet he knew his father was with him. That transends all suffering. That's why Christians who are deep in their relationship can go thru almost everything with such grace. The world doesn't understand us when they see such things. But see, that's part of our witness.



It's not something you put into a beaker and observe Ock. I spent years studying the background of history and archeology and some science regarding biblical claims or events and have spent gads of time discussing these things with both believers and non-believers. I've put God to the test, many times asking him to show me that he was real. Each and every time he came through sometimes in ways I wasn't expecting but still had the "wow" moment sometimes months later without even thinking about it.

Just for instance.....I was speaking to my husband about a bible verse that hit me hard one day. I'm blabbing away as we were making up the bed together after taking the sheets out of the dryer. In the background the tv was on. The show "In the Heat of the Night" was on. You know that cop show with Carroll O'Conner? Anyhow just as we were finishing up, the lead character on the show pulls open the desk drawer and takes out a bible. He opens up the bible and read that EXACT verse. Just that one verse. ON A COP SHOW? I still remember the verse. This was years ago.

That's blown away. We weren't watching a bible program. In fact I've never seen any religious parts on that show before. Totally blew me away. I call that confirmation. Happens all the time. It's like when your eyes are totally opened to God. He'll give us as many confirmations as we need. He's pretty patient.

If you're looking for a concrete science experiment to test for God you won't find it. But there are some very strange and exciting finds and facts in history and archeology that only strengthened and confirmed my faith. Do you want me to start listing these things...because I can.

If you are sincere and you are really searching for God, it won't take long and he'll answer you and he'll blow you away. I'm absolutely sure of it. Unexplainable things will begin to happen but nothing happens until the stoney heart is made into flesh.

Now, that's a science experiment.

Just in case you get the wrong idea, let me say this very clearly so you won't misunderstand me.

It’s faith that enables us to live the Christian life. In order to know what faith is, let me tell you what faith is not. Faith is not a hunch. Nor is it positive thinking. Faith is not responding to emotions, feelings, and icicles up and down your spine or miracles, signs and wonders. Faith is not believing that God can do something. Faith is knowing that God will. Faith is taking God at His word. Real faith dies to doubt. It is dumb to discouragement. It is blind to impossibilities. Now this is the kind of faith we need. This is the kind of faith I have.

Howdy cousin!

If you are sincere and you are really searching for God

Maybe I'm getting senile. Other posters that may read this - is there another OckhamsRazor posting stuff somewhere on JU?

It's not something you put into a beaker and observe Ock.

Meaning it can't be proven? Then stop saying it's a fact. Say you believe it and have unyielding faith, but don't say it's a fact unless you add "to me".

Now, that's a science experiment.

No, it isn't. See Zoo's more than kind explanation of scientific method on your blog.

You know that cop show with Carroll O'Conner?

I don't watch network TV (when I have it - I don't even have it here in Italy). My television choices are pretty much limited to PBS, Discovery Channel, Sci-Fi network (rarely), Comedy Channel. My wife likes the cooking channel - I only like one show on it - Good Eats with Alton Brown. Guess why?

it doesn't quite work like that. So if that's your criteria...it ain't going to happen.

I know that. I was using an extreme to make a point.

By the way, I keep forgetting to mention because there are always so many other things to say - Yes, I went to the AiG site. I didn't see anything particular there that was noteworthy, but I'll read specific things if you want me to. It seems to be mostly "Gap Science" Which is the nature of YECs contention with evolution. Here's a species found living X years ago. Here's a different species it evolved into X / 2 years ago. Creationist says "Well, you'll have to find the transitional fossil between the two for me to believe that." So the evolution scientist does. Now we have three species. X , X/2, and X + X/4. Now the creationist wants the fossil between X and X + X/4. And so on and so on. You could find 10,000 transitional fossils between X and X / 2, and the Creationist would just say that there are 10,000 gaps not filled with a transitional fossil to explain it.

Here's a Christian site for you. I just stumbled on this last night, and while I don't agree with everything there, and you will surely disagree with everything there, it won't hurt you to look at it. It's a discussion (basically) about science and Christianity living together. You could start with this article about Morton's Demon.

Those might be wise words to think of for yourself......

and yourself as well Karma.

I spend alot of time dodging flying flaming arrows around here and you are one that loves to shoot them my way as well as anybody.



well some have...some haven't. Most that I've met....have not. I know a couple of what I like to call born-again Catholics. They are different. They have a great love for Christ as Savior. Many are born into it and go thru the motions. They love their church but do they love Christ? Not so sure. It's individualistic.

Both of our families are totally Catholic. Most don't even go to church. Those that do have nothing outside of thier half hour on Saturday night. I was brought up Catholic. There's a reason I'm not there now. My husband was saved at 30 years of age by finally recognizing Christ as more than he was taught as Catholic. We did not belong to any denomination at the time. This has nothing to do with religion LW.



Because that's part of my old life. I do on occasion bring stuff up but I don't dwell on these things. I wasn't a "bad" person as far as the world was concerned. I didn't do the "bad" stuff so some would might say..."what's the big deal?" I was the teenager that went to the pot parties and drinking parties and abstained. But actually I think hate, selfishness, pride, anger are much worse than taking a drink or smoking a butt. People that are the closest to me over the years have commented how much I have changed so it's not just me "feeling" like I've changed. I know I have.



Well I have admitted mistakes. Yes, I have. Uncharitable? Well I try not to be. Actually I did mention something at least once. My very first article on JU would qualify there. So I guess I have. That was an article about walking past a homeless person without helping her at first. Usually I'm the type LW that would give my shirt away if I saw someone with no shirt. I don't (and I've said this before) brag about my charity. I might brag on my kids here and there but I don't brag on me.

Meanspirited? I'm not. I suppose we all do mean things on occasion but it's not part of my nature to be mean. Quite often in person, I'll clam up rather than offend somebody when I have the opportunity to say something that is totally contrary to what they are saying. Especially if they don't know me and know my heart.

Sarcastic? Yes, I can be that but usually only to those I think can handle it. So if I'm sarcatic towards you, then I must feel you can take it.

LW...please believe me...I've said this before...I don't have struggles. REally. My life is struggle free right now. Much of that is because of my life in Chrsit. That's why I want what I have for others. Even on my down days which are not frequent at all, I still trust that God is taking care of things. I don't worry.

The only fret or discouragment I have is the fact that Satan is alive and well and blinding those I am in contact with. I get frustrated with that. I have a gift of discernment and prophecy (not the kind that foretells) that is a very frustrating gift to have. But even then, I do trust God. I just wish I could help others more than I do.

But LW...I can't make up stuff. I'm pretty honest. I'm not one to garner sympathy and cry on other's shoulders. That's just not me. I'm sorry I'm not real to you...because I've been told many times in person that one thing they like about me is I don't mince words and I say it like it is. Besides LW you have to admit, you make it darn hard. I've tried to extend the olive leaf to you many times and you've pushed my hand away. It doesn't really matter what I say, you'll find fault with me until you're good and ready (if ever) not to be contentious with me.

People trust that I'm going to give them a straight up answer, not necessarily one they want to hear. I believe truth demands confrontation. That's why I probably get in trouble around here...at least that's what I see. I'm not out to win any popularity contests. That's for sure...hahahah if so, I'm going about it all wrong.

I'm still trying to figure out how my grandson ended up with a blueish grey eyes. I have brown eyes. My husband has hazel green eyes. My son has brown eyes. His wife has hazel green eyes. So the baby has neither his mom's nor his dad's eyes nor mine or my husbands.

I know his maternal grandfather has bright blue eyes and I think his maternal grandmother has brown eyes. So this was a surprise to all of us who just thought he'd end up with brown eyes like most of his paternal family includng my parents.

With another child on the way, we look forward to seeing the color of this new grandbaby's eyes.