hey kupe. just a simple point out! don't take much to bring the anti-semites crawling out from under the rocks does it.

It would seem in reading the original post and the ensuing replies that a couple of old, meant to be funny, sayings come to mind.

"We have met the enemy and they is us" is one.

It would seem that no matter how hard we as people of the world try to move away from the insane trappings of our past, some of us just can't let go. People succeed because they do. They work harder than the rest of us, they may even be smarter (not really sure that has been proven), but most of all they believe in themselves. Nothing what so ever to do with race, religion or what color socks they wear.

Don't get me wrong, being pround of your heritage is important, it defines who we are as individuals.

The other saying, well alot of you aren't going to like it, "There's no fix for stupid". Think about it, it will come to you.

Everyone have a great day.   

As someone who considers himself part of no particular race or creed, my observation, as a broad generalization, is that Jewish people, like many minority groups, are far more clanish than the majority of people.

And by clanish, I mean that they will go out of their way to help others of their clan than they would someone else even if they don't know them very well personally. This, in turn, gives them a significant material advantage over others.

It's akin to a giant fraternity where jobs, opportunities, access to capital and connections are made available purely based on the fact that they share a particular creed (in this case, Judaism). 

I've seen the same sort of clanishness with nearly every other minority group so it's not specific to Jewish people.  The difference is that in the United States, Jewish people have never faced much discrimination so that the native advantages of having a vast network of people there to give you a leg up based purely on a shared creed had a head start over later comers (Asians, etc.).

The fact that the examples given are almost all American Jews I think really hits home this observation. 

As someone with no preconceived notions on the matter and never having belonged to any clan (whether it be a fraternity, prestigious university, religion, or race) it is something that is both fascinating and frustrating as I am a big believer in pure merit and having met some of the examples you mention above personally and knowing one of them pretty well, I think that a significant piece of their success (at least in the ones I know personally) comes not from "pulling yourself up" but more of a leg up thanks to the help of other members of the clan. I don't think it would be hard to deconstruct some of the success stories listed in the article to drive the point home.

If anything, I would argue that this topic serves more as a text book case of the power of clans and how groups of people who are tightly connected in some way tend to do far better than the general population -- regardless of whether they're Jewish, Hindu, Harvard alumni, or heck Scientologists.

Post # 28 is dead on. I was raised Jewish (Mother). Now I am nothing, except when I have a Jewish business associate, then I am a Jew.   

Where? I don't see any.

I couldn't agree more.  

I'm not an anti-semite. An anti-dentite maybe... but not an anti-semite...

I was not suggesting he was...but merely pointing out that once race, colour or creed is attached to anything, good or bad, intolerances and negatives a plenty come crawling out of the woodwork.

I don't think of anyone as belonging to any specific group/culture, etc, but purely as an individual, and in this age of migration, integration and multiculturalism it is the best (only) way to be. Here in Oz we are one of the most diverse nations on earth, with people from every corner of the globe, and every one of them to me is an Australian long before they are black or white, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish or Christian, etc, etc. Same everywhere....people are human beings before they belong to any ethnic, religious or political group or faction.

Every religion teaches love of our fellow man....all mankind, meaning we should embrace all humanity and not separate it into minority groups/clans.

While I find your article interesting. The general assumptions and vague analysis is quite flawed. There are a number of contributing factors of interest such as How often wealth changes hands (or grows), immigration levels, etc, etc.

If your going to do an analysis based on religion then what percentage of the overall population is Catholic, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, Protestant, etc. Also, what are the percentages of business ownership by religious belief's in general? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a higher number of Jew's create/own their own business!

Coincidentally I'm a big believer in merit just as Brad is. When you have the combination of skills/merit and community (clans) connections than success can't help but, foster success.

I must agree with post 28 it really is right on the mark.

But it is a tiny bit deeper than that, it comes from a time when Jews in America could get no outside help, just because they were Jews, Not Christian, so they turned to each other for help, it was all they way into the 1960's that marrying outside of the faith was enough to get disowned that's how deep the clannishness went. Imagine a Mothers and fathers worse nightmare was not having a criminal for a son or daughter, but to have them bring home someone that is not a JEW and announce they intended to marry them.

It goes back a lot further than that and not just for people of the Jewish faith.

Culture, not race or religion.

Very true.  Culture is what makes us try to excel - or accept we cannot do something.

I dare say if you look at the percentage of cultures and their impact on the internet, you would find some cultures over represented and others under represented.

Larry,

I maintained that your post was prideful, self-serving, and yes, in a manner of speaking, racist. I wasn't commenting on whatever articles or studies you were linking to in an effort to back up your (thoroughly inappropriate for this forum, or sub forum for that matter) post.

From personal experience, only one of the many billionaires I work with (or have worked with) and know PERSONALLY is Jewish - Steven Spielberg. And I wouldn't call him VERY Jewish on the scale of lapsed to orthodox, hehe. In fact, before directing his masterpiece, Schindler's List, and starting the SHOAH foundation (which I helped with) he used to get a lot of crap from the Jewish community for "not being Jewish enough" etc. Ironic, yes?

So, like with MOST statistics (aka lies), I would suspect that the studies you quote would present a black and white position to bolster a pre-determined position, rather than truly represent the SCALE of diversity found with modern Jewish culture. And that's just bad science.

For example, if these so called "studies" actually carried the kind of cause and effect relationship that you are implying here, then the "more Jewish" a billionaire was, the more billions his net worth would be.

I'll give you one guess if that is true or not.

In point of fact, the only thing I found in common (as an overwhelmingly prevalent trait) of all of the billionaires I have worked with is that they were all short.

Brad,

That's probably the best post I've ever read from you on any subject.

^^ Troll-bait/post. Let's keep it clean, folks.

We should be able to argue whether or not a position is based on flawed logic and self-serving statistics without being accused of antisemitism, yes?

In fact, the first person to back me up on this would be your rabbi...ahem.

race/religion/male/female/disabled...etc has absolutly nothing to do with wether or not you become successful,talented,poor or rich at anything be it internet or real life.
so i have to ask, why is the jewish impact on the internet a discussion? cause obviously the same could be discussed for any single person on the planet.

why not?   

was not talking further than, was talking "UP TO"

Excalpius, you have stated your opinion, and offered "personal experience" to support your position. I have responded with surveys from Ohio State University and Stanford University. You responded by saying "like with MOST statistics (aka lies)"

Would it be safe to infer that you could not find any studies to refute my contentions?

"For example, if these so called "studies" actually carried the kind of cause and effect relationship that you are implying here, then the "more Jewish" a billionaire was, the more billions his net worth would be." Untrue and further proof of your bias. You did not even read the material that was linked.

In fact no one offered facts or studies to refute what I presented. There were strongly held opinions, but no support. Anyone care to cite a study that says there is NO relation between religion and wealth?

You have twice expressed the opinion (and that is what it is, an opinion) that this article did not belong on the Internet section. Aside from that not being under your jurisdiction, I would like to point out that I posted this article on my personal blog. The topic was the Internet, so it appeared in the forums.

Mr. Kuperman, if I may, Larry, I know that we haven't been introduce properly, my name is John Toth. If you look at my profile you'll see we are close in age. That I'm older doesn't make me wiser or smarter, just older.

I've had the luxury, by way of 30yrs of military service, to travel to many different parts of the world. What I have found is that usually the most happy people are the ones that have very little in material wealth, but have a strong family unit. Now you may say what does this have to do with your post. IMHO western civilizations worry way to much about status and rank than what their individual cultures would tolerate.

I'm taking that if you brought up the original post that you yourself are Jewish. Be honest now, what does your faith say about such things?

Your post was about fine people doing outstanding things that unfortunately has now taken a back seat to arguments about who they are.

Something to think about, if I go to the baker to get bread does it really matter who they are if the bread is good.

Have a good evening.   

To remain on topic, the article I think was asserting that much of our Internet experience is due to people who are Jewish. 

I would dispute some of that since I think that someone else would have stepped forward (a computer maker and various digital merchants -- someone's going to fill the vacuum).

But I do think that if you look at the big picture that jewish people tend to be more materially successful for the reasons I outlined in response #28.

As well off as I am today, I can imagine how much quicker and easier it would have been if I had had family or clan-like connections or even business partners. You can skip a lot of steps if you have a support network to rely upon. 

Having been to my share of Entrepreneur banquets and what not, the "sold his first business at 21 for X million" usually is another way of saying "Dad helped".   Meanwhile, when I was 21, the first major product of my start-up made little money for us because the publisher didn't pay royalties.  Unlike the connected 21 year old, I didn't even have enough money to hire a lawyer to collect the $500k or so I was owed let alone have a network of business veterans to negotiate and finalize a multi-million dollar acquisition.

By contrast, someone whose parents or friends or fellow members of a particular creed can provide capital, expertise, introductions, and experience to young entrepreneurs.  This is particularly true of those who seek their fortunes in capital markets (Internet retailers of various sorts).

That doesn't take anything away from the successful individuals and their achievements. Nor does it take away anything from the Jewish culture that values material success (compared to Christian culture which is often hostile to the concept of people working for material wealth -- oh they'll lavish praise on athletes and then criticize capitalists). 

But the reality is, IMO, Jewish success is overwhelmingly due to the advantages of clan. I have seen it many times -- all things being equal -- or not even completley equal -- jewish decision makers choosing jewish vendors or partners over non-jewish. No different than a gigantic fraternity, etc.   People are like that.  I give graduates of Western Michigan University an extra look when their resume pops onto my desk simply because I went there. It's human nature.

And the secondary reason for Jewish success is a culture of valuing material success.  I know of one Jewish CEO in the skinning community whose MySpace page has pictures of their home that appear to have been taken by a professional photographer. He takes pride in his material achievements.  By contrast, I don't put up pictures of my house (other than my lake cottage because it's new) because I fear the negative perception it will generate.  And I'm more capitalistic than most people. So let's face it, when we spit or tut-tut the concept of material success, you lesson the incentive to do the hard work to make it happen. Advantage: Judaism.

Shame on petty Christian culture who tries to hide their envy and jealousy behind faux-piusness.  But also shame on all clans and creeds and groups that discriminate based on a shared creed, religion, culture. Merit should be the guide. 

 

Obscure Seinfeld reference...funny.

Same point as I was making....race, colour or creed is irrelevant.

We have many bakeries here in Oz that are owned by Vietnamese people....bread, cakes and pastries taste the same/as good as/better than those made by Aussies, Italians or famed French bakers, etc...yuuummm

What we need is a great big melting pot....yeah, 'Imagine' that.

I can agree with that....seen it many times in the property/building game.  I once had a work experience student [Architecture] ....taught him all sorts of basic tenets of design/problem-solving, but unlike me he had a close-knit family [Immigrant Italian] that had all sorts of doors/opportunities available to him that I was devoid....he can probably buy and sell me 20 times over now, as a successful Architect.  My family had no such connection 'in the game' so my professional experience was more down to long-haul reputation.

Much of 'success' is about being in the right place at the right time...but having a supportive 'clan' will ground you awfully well...

Philly, in my opening paragraph I stated "Being a Secular Jew myself..." A Secular Jew is one who studies all the aspects of Judaism, including religion, but accepts only the cultural ones. I study the Bible, for example, but don't believe that it was divinely inspired. More importantly, we don't require that a person have to meet birthright requirements in order to be Jewish. Orthodox Jews require both parents be Jewish, Conservative Jews require that the mother be Jewish, Reform that either parent be Jewish. Our definition is cultural. That is very much germane to the topic.

Starkers wrote "if I go to the baker to get bread does it really matter who they are if the bread is good." No it doesn't matter if the bread is good.....but would all bakers of all cultures produce the same quality? I think that the answer is "no."

Baker A belongs to an obscure religious group called the Pray-A-Lots. The believe that all out comes are determined only by prayer and that every other 15 minutes you need to stop and pray. As a result of constantly being distracted, Baker A always burns the bread. When people complain about the blackened bread, he replies that "I shall pray on it." He doesn't believe that leaving the bread in the oven too long is the cause because he doesn't accept a deterministic view of the world.

Baker B is a secularist. His world view holds that you determine the optimum baking conditions in order to create the perfect loaf. You duplicate and repeat said conditions, ensuring the highest quality standards. As a result of this philosophy, he becomes very successful. opens up a string of bakeries, sends his kids to college, where they create search engines....okay, I'll stop.

The difference between Baker A and B is not genetic, not caused by being a member of a better race Baker B uses a better methodology, because he has a more realistic world view. That world view is made possible by the culture that he was raised in and religion is a part of that culture.

Religions that insist that everything that is to happen in the world has already been ordained and that you will only be able to do what you are "fated" to do produce passive people. Examples of religions that encourage passivity include Hinduism, Islam and Evangelical Christianity. All three religions mentioned also discourage the accumulation of wealth. In studies correlating wealth and religion in America, Evangelicals score the lowest and Jews the highest.

Jews, as a culture, not a religion or race, tend to be more deterministic. Sure, the image that the outside world has of a Jew is the ultra-Orthodox or Chasidic Jew. But statistically, Reform Judaism is the largest sect and even more, one third of the Jewish population of the world is secularist. Religious Jews are in the minority and have been for the last 200 years. (We refer to period beginning in the late 18th Century as the Haskalah or Enlightenment. All modern forms of Judaism originate in this time.)

"But the reality is, IMO, Jewish success is overwhelmingly due to the advantages of clan. " I disagree. It is A FACTOR, no argument, but not the major one. Jews are successful because they actively seek success. Even the Covenant with Abraham was one of land and prosperity, not of Heaven. Success is something to be sought, not to be embarrassed about.

Last note on this post itself. I have been accused of being "prideful." Well, yeah. But in my culture, that is not a sin.