KFC had an interesting post about the Rapture and leaving and that gave me a rather interesting thought.
If we accept the fact (temporarily) that the Rapture is going to happen, and the “train” comes for you to get aboard, you look at the magnificent train and then look back at the red and black billowing clouds and those left behind.
You look at the last train leaving he station, then back to the gathering storm....
Let’s assume you see your neighbor and his wife or, perhaps your own daughter and they cannot get on the train due to lack of faith, wrong faith etc.
Knowing what is about to happen to them, the death, pain and destruction, as a caring, loving Christian, would you leave them? Could you live with that decision?
I think what you are missing is that everyone has a ticket to ride, it's just that each person has their own appointment with destiny and not everyone wants to be on that train. The richman with no name, had all the opportunities that the poor beggar at his gate did, but the one ended up in hades and the other one in Abraham's bosom. In the end God knows in advance who is going to come along and who is not, so his cut off time would take into consideration the final choices of all human beings. Does this make sense ?
I'd look at it the exact same way I look at life. They are responsible for their decisions, I am not. We don't have to agree because I don't pay for their mistakes, they don't pay for mine.
I would no more go to hell for someone I love, than say, go to prison.
If burning in hell is a sign of love and being a christian...wow, Satan must be the best.
Just because the rapture takes place it doesn't mean total destruction for those left behind. As I go further into Revelation it will be seen that MANY will still come to Christ. God is a God of second, third and more chances. He's very patient but there will be a time when even God's patience runs out.
In 7:9 it shows us that a great multitude will still be saved even during the tribulation. The only difference is it's going to be pretty bad for a while but even then some will still make it intact and be standing when he comes back.
I think Tova said it well here. It's a decision we make and cannot make for another. The best thing a Christian can do is redeem the time now and not take this lightly. So we tell that neighbor and his wife or relative that you spoke of NOW. By then it will be too late and besides, we won't have a chance nor will we want to "stay behind." It's going to happen in the twinkling of an eye. Our desire is to go when he says....come!
Just because the rapture takes place it doesn't mean total destruction for those left behind. As I go further into Revelation it will be seen that MANY will still come to Christ. God is a God of second, third and more chances. He's very patient but there will be a time when even God's patience runs out.
Good.... then would it not make more sense for those who are "saved" and getting on the train to get off and help those not on to come to salvation?
We don't have to agree because I don't pay for their mistakes, they don't pay for mine.
But I am not talking about "going to prison". If you are allowed on the trail, you will be on the train regardless of when. What i am saying is if you see someone about to experience hardship and pain, would it not be more christian to help them, rather than say "they deserve it. Perhaps they don't.
What i am saying is if you see someone about to experience hardship and pain, would it not be more christian to help them
Help them what? They are given the same opportunity I am given, they refuse the gift and the gift giver. How exactly am I going to help them? By suffering with them? That's helping? Or maybe forcing them to believe and accept something they don't believe or accept? (If I even could.)
Do you think there will be any place for Christian living once the body is gone?
You aren't one of those people who pray for Satan are you? Seriously, I have talked with people who believe Satan can be "turned around." So they pray God will negate his wrath against the evil one, forgive him, and take him back into the fold.
That's nuts if you also believe God knows all, including the future. He knows who will and won't accept the gift. Doesn't wanting to stay behind spit at the gift and also tell God He doesn't know what He's doing? Not to mention its so arrogant I can hardly read it without laughing....
"Oh yeah God. Sorry I don't wanna come. I know you can't sway these people with the Holy Spirit, or your blood, or your Word, or even your miracles, and even though you know the future and know they will never accept the gift, I wanna stay here and SAVE THEM MYSELF."
Get out the cross....
Being Christian is following Christ, not some mamby pamby good feeling thing. Who do you think is going to cast the unrepentant into the lake of fire? I guess Jesus isn't a good Christian either.
At the end of the day, we are each responsible to God for our lives. Who woulda thunk Jesus was all about personal responsibility?
that's a nice characteristic to have IG. You sound very compassionate. But there's only so much you can do. It's like trying to make a horse drink or a baby eat. If they are not in the mood,...ain't gonna happen.
That's why I said on my blog that nobody is going that doesn't want to go. The rapture is only for those IN Christ whether already dead or still alive.
If that is the case, would it not make more sense to stay behind and help them on their way, or at least make their last days on earth bearble?
Actually, God has that all taken care of. He's sealing 144,000 Jewish Christians for just that reason. They will preach and teach for those that will become converted during this time. Also there will be two witnesses that God will send who also will be able to continue the work.
Also, why would you leave such an amazing show. Never before seen. Chaos loose on the world. the rampant fury of a vengeful deity
believe me, I don't think we want to see this horror show. Would you have liked to be in the middle of Nazi Territory in say 1942 as a Jew? That's what it's going to be like for Christians during the Tribulation.
But, if I understand the belief of the end times, there is still a chance after the rapture for those behind to be converted.
If that is the case, would it not make more sense to stay behind and help them on their way, or at least make their last days on earth bearble?
Also, why would you leave such an amazing show. Never before seen. Chaos loose on the world. the rampant fury of a vengeful deity.
IG
Hi IG,
I know this is a rather old post but as this is a discussion. It is one I started in 2007 and have since wondered how we came to have a 'belief of the end times'
I know that a few years before I entered my first physical church, to celebrate being baptized/baptizo into the body of Christ. Let me try in 'English' :
I know that a few years ago before I entered the building commonly referred to as the church (with the steeple - actually there was no steeple) to celebrate my spiritual birth with others who I learned had been born of God too, I'd managed to assemble a 'belief of the end times' based on what I'd heard here and there.
Of course, I got a version of a 'belief of the end times' from those who were doing the teaching and preaching in the church (with the steeple - actually there was no steeple) and from a few books that I've read over the years.
Between 1995 and this writing in 2007 'Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, dealing with Christian dispensationalist End Times: pretribulation, premillennial, Christian eschatological viewpoint of the end of the world. The primary conflict of the series is the members of the Tribulation Force against the Global Community and its leader Nicolae Carpathia—the Antichrist. Left Behind is also the title of the first book in the series. The series was first published 1995-2007 by Tyndale House, a firm with a history of interest indispensationalism.' ( From: Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia)
One last stanza and then I'll make my point.
During 2007, I went on a my first journey out of Africa and recorded on of a set of 10 songs with Randy Stonehill (one of the fathers of Christian Rock) titled 'The Last Train'
Now this song pretty much reflects the view that I'd assembled up to then but have since learned that this view might possibly be seriously flawed. I refer: Matthew 24 – DD’s new episodes (regularly updated)
It seems to me that the view of Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Armageddon and the 1000 years peace etc. referred to in the book of Revelation and the passages in Matthew, Mark and various other books in the Christian sacred texts might be more consistent with an Orthodox interpretation referred to as Preterism.
'Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets prophecies of the Bible, especiallyDaniel and Revelation, as events which have already happened in the first century A.D. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is listed in Webster's 1913 dictionary as a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond," signifying that either all or a majority of Bible prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70. Adherents of preterism are commonly known as preterists.' (From: Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia)
My own studies of the whole Bible have led me to conclude that there is not going to be a rapture (Edit Add: at least the way that some pre-millennialists describe it) and that the coming of Jesus will coincide with and end time resurrection similar to that taught in the Old Testament. I could surrender many verses in support of this but as I'm still in a bit of a puzzle, I'm just throwing this out there in case anyone has studied this in depth and can guide me out of the maze.
So, I'm 54 and thinking. So what're your thoughts/beliefs about the rapture? (and end times) I get that it's quite a modern development born out of the schismatics and combined with the anti-Orthodox position held by many Protestants has pretty much gone and developed into a frightening tale that is more an invention of bad exegesis than anything worth believing etc.
Peace, Aeryck.
'The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethren led by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects. ....' (The Raptureby Aristobulus (Roger) Allen
The Bible is very specific in several points that make preterism not likely. Also, the things described in Revelations haven't happened yet. The way that the Bible specifically states the number of weeks that God will deal with Israel, but there's still a week left, is pretty clear as well. There's still 7 years that God is going to deal with Israel. It hasn't happened yet, and it doesn't say The Church. Israel is its own Biblical concept, while the church is a completely different Biblical concept, and putting the one into the other is incorrect, in my estimation. The Church is not the New Israel. Israel is Israel. For example, the Jews are the only people group to ever survive as a people group while losing their country. Okay, why were they preserved? So that they could be replaced? Nope. If God didn't plan to deal with Israel again, they would have been wiped out. As it stands, they haven't, and Israel is a PLACE ON A MAP again. How can anyone look at this and think that the Church replaces Israel? I can imagine if Israel hadn't reformed, and was still scattered, but having come back together, the picture is crystal clear of what is going to happen. God doesn't preserve people for no reason. He's not done with Israel, and because of that, the things in week 7 have yet to occur.
A preterist view doesn't explain everything that's indicated to have occured by Christ's return.
So this means you have to remove specific references that remain unfulfilled and say they "aren't relevant" (which opens up a whole deal about what the bible is for) or you have to generalize and smear the specificity to make them fit...redefine the whole idea of Christs return even as metaphor, etc., etc.
There are some very specific things mentioned in Daniel and Revelation that definitely haven't occurred. If these can be dismissed as allegory, so can the virgin birth, existence of Jesus, inspiration of scripture, interpretation of scripture, etc. etc.
The reason we have a holy spirit is to allow the bible to be more than academic, philosophical and historical literature.
A lot of scenarios popular in churches are very shaky speculations--but the general concept of a rapture/rescue is very plausible within scripture.
A preterist view doesn't explain everything that's indicated to have occured by Christ's return.
So this means you have to remove specific references that remain unfulfilled and say they "aren't relevant" (which opens up a whole deal about what the bible is for) or you have to generalize and smear the specificity to make them fit...redefine the whole idea of Christs return even as metaphor, etc., etc.
There are some very specific things mentioned in Daniel and Revelation that definitely haven't occurred. If these can be dismissed as allegory, so can the virgin birth, existence of Jesus, inspiration of scripture, interpretation of scripture, etc. etc.
The reason we have a holy spirit is to allow the bible to be more than academic, philosophical and historical literature.
A lot of scenarios popular in churches are very shaky speculations--but the general concept of a rapture/rescue is very plausible within scripture.
It is also clear that judgement is coming through the bowls and the trumpets and all that, but the Bible is clear that Christians aren't to be judged like that.
The Bible is very specific in several points that make preterism not likely
“Postmillenialism is the belief that Christ, with His coming, His atonement, and His continuing regenerative power in those whom He calls, creates in His redeemed people a force for the reconquest of all things. The dominion that Adam first received and then lost by his fall will be restored to redeemed man. God’s people will then have a long reign over the entire earth, after which, when all enemies have been put under Christ’s feet, the end shall come, and the last enemy, death, will be destroyed.” R.J. Rushdoony from “Back to the Future” From: Monergism – Post Millenialism
'In Christian end-times theology, (eschatology), postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after (Latin post-) the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper. The term subsumes several similar views of the end times, and it stands in contrast to premillennialism and, to a lesser extent,amillennialism (see Summary of Christian eschatological differences).' From: Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia - Post Millennialism
'Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.'
Matthew 10:23 NKJV
'When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.'
Matthew 16:28 NKJV
“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Revelation 1:1 and 3 NKJV
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, ....Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."
Matthew 24:3 NKJV
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Psalm 110:1-2 NKJV
The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
*1 Corinthians 15:20-28 NKJV*
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by mancame death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Isaiah 13:9-10 NKJV
Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
Ezekiel 32:7-8 NKJV
When I put out your light,
I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.
All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, And bring darkness upon your land,” Says the Lord God.
Isaiah 34:4-5 NKJV
All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.
“For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
Isaiah 19:1 NKJV
The burden against Egypt.
Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.
’I don’t know that I would say of myself that I’ve “undergone some theological changes.” My interpretation of some individual texts has changed, but it hasn’t resulted in a major overhaul of my eschatology. I would consider it more of a refinement of some details. Regarding the terms “Amillennialism” and “Postmillennialism,” it is true that I’m far less concerned now about which of those terms people use to label my views. If that’s a major theological change, so be it. I recall something that Donald Bloesch wrote, where he said (and I’m paraphrasing from memory here) that his view could be defined aspostmillennialism within an amillennial framework.I’ve always thought that statement pretty well summed up my own position. I see the views as ranging along a spectrum. My understanding of postmillennialism is in that blurry part of the spectrum where some versions of amillennialism and some versions of postmillennialism overlap. That’s why it doesn’t concern me which label one uses to describe my views. The key point that seems to determine where one stands concerns how much visible manifestation in history there will be of the growth of the kingdom (which all sides grant). I’m a bit more optimistic about that question than someone like, say, Cornelis Venema, with whom I agree on a number of points. I still like the D-Day and V-Day analogy. The growth of the kingdom is comparable to the time between D-Day and V-Day. There’s progress towards victory, but it is a bloody and hardfought battle all the way until the end.’ (read the review)
What is Amillennialism?
'Amillennialism (Latin: a- "no" + millennialism) is a view in Christian end-times theology named for its rejection of the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year long, physical reign on the earth. This is in opposition to premillennial and some postmillennial interpretations of chapter 20of the Book of Revelation.
In contrast, the amillennial view holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is asymbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age, (or more rarely, that it ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70— see Preterism). Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent physical reign.' From: Amillennialism @ Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia (read more)
Here's a discussion I had on the subject being somewhat undecided about this matter for a really long time:
WHY I AM NOT AN ORTHODOX PRETERIST YETby "headheart" < That's me! ( Though I call myself a "Wiccan", it is only done as a protest against the Evangelical Christian shrapnel ( Wicca is an evil, demonic power thirsty faith. ) I incurred during an enquiry into the subject of "Witchcraft 'n Wicca" - something I have been researching for well over a decade having published a small but biased article in 2003 thereabouts simply titled "Witchcraft." ( there are several links to my ongoing research, here )
+)(+
I'm currently studying (being part mentored) a number of books by various authors and several excellent commentaries dealing with the problematic passages such as the few I referred to in reply 23 (below the video by D.D. Warren of PreterSite 100% Certified Heresy Free) If you've not listened to her latest podcast dealing with Matthew 24:34 - It's About Time! as an ongoing exegesis of Matthew 24 (her commentary of the same at Pretersite) I recommend you give it a hard tonk!
It's still very much a work in progress and I'm largely indecisive but I don't intend to sit on the fence and say something like 'I'm a Panmillennialist' and it'll all pan-out or reboot in the end.
I think the bold section of the following quote pretty much summarizes my own thoughts thus far:
A little more from: The Rapture by Aristobolus (Roger) Allan:
"To be sure, there will be a catching away of the saints on earth but this happens at the last trumpet sound (Revelation 11:15). Writing to the Christians in Thessalonica, St. Paul tells us what the 2nd coming (Greek- parousia) is like. "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)".The same words are used here to describe the catching up of Christians as is used to describe the 2nd coming of the Lord. Both occur in the clouds, in the air, and everyone on earth sees it happen. In other words, the so-called Rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ will happen at the same time." ( read more)
Peace,
Aeryck
Add to that another passage from Paul's letters too: 1 Corinthians 15:52 What is this 'last trumpet' that Paul is talking about?
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I recall something that 