Skinning Vista and the lack thereof.

My initial thoughts.

from WinCustomize Forums

 


  I finally got Vista loaded on a dual boot a couple of days ago, I'd like to vent a little about what I have noticed on my initial foray into the OS and why I am disappointed so far.


Let me preface this by saying although I am sure there are many technological and security advances that this article pretty much applies to only the appearance of the OS and how it is different from XP as far as skinning it.


The first thing you notice obviously is the start menu. HUGE changes. I personally find having the all programs menu incorporated into the programs panel of the start menu very counter-intuitive. maybe I am not used to it yet but I feel I catch on quick.. and to me.. its fairly useless.. I don't remember the last time I actually had to search for a program and even after I get used to not seeing my nicely skinned All programs menu I feel that having a non-skinnable obtrusive search box "in ur face" is quite a culture shock.


2. No longer can we skin our loggof\turn off buttons, now were stuck with huge glassy rectangles that in a mediochre way assume, via translucency the color of the Logoff Panel.


3.After entering search mode in the search box we have black text that sits right on top of where the all programs background is...meaning that for those of us that used images for arrows.. now.. cannot. Now if we want it to look useable in search mode we must use a plain background. Yet another area snatched away from the skinner.


4. The Programs search area. Now.. when in search mode, the background of the search menu assumes the themes main buttonface color. This means that when designing a start menu you have to skin the Item mousover image not just to match the start menu background (both sides) but also to look correct when being used over the buttonface color that occupis the seach mode window.


5. Scrollbars. Vista inhibits the design of these. Unless you match the scrollbar background color when making your scrollbars then as soon as scrollbars are being used in the Start menu it wont match.  That color, again.. is the buttonface color. 


6.Tiling. The left side of the start menu now does not tile correctly inhibiting overall design of the start menu as if the aformentioned changes werent enough to already bugger it up.


7.Toolbar background color. Lots of areas in Vista now use the same text color as color of the text used on the toolbar background. Why is this bad? Most of the areas that inherit this text color are skinned almost white, natively in Vista. Meaning that If.. like in SG1.. You have a darker toolbar with light text.. that text is now unreadable where it is being used in certain areas of Vista.. meaning, to upgrade older skins I would have to re-design several areas of a theme to make it compatible.


8. IE7. Yea, I know, sooner or later I will have no choice.. However the loss of toolbar icons and being told what buttons you can have and where to put them is going to severely affect the overall outcome of a themes design.


Theres more..but Ill save that for a second article, and this is after looking at the OS for less than 90 mins.


I realize that change is inevitable and honestly in most cases I welcome it, usually..newer versions of most software is better but speaking strictly from a skinners perspective Microsoft has taken a HUGE step backwards in its interface design and how it interacts as a whole.


For now.. if I have to, or I am being paid to, I will skin Vista. I can and honestly it will be almost easier once I retain a firm grasp of what affects what in the Vista OS. Do I want to start skinning it ..no. The reason being it has taken away a lot of areas where a skinner can differentiate themselves, left less room for interpretation and overall just sort of dumbed it down.


I therefore have personally decided that any new themes that I make will be either XP or Vista.. as in XP, a lot more can be accomplished from a skinners point of view that cannot in Vista.


Im sure Vista will one day rule the world but I definately feel that for those who appreciate their skins as useable works of art rather than just a skin that works... that at least at this time XP is the better choice. As of right now you can do far less in Vista than you can in XP.


Feel free to tell me why I'm wrong, I hope some of you can (honestly the whole thing is depressing me)..as pertains to specific issues mentioned above and I'd like to hear what, If anything WB 6 and SKS will bring to the table to add some life to the skinning of Vista.


I'm all for something new but not if it limits my creativity.


Have a great Weekend !  

community
4,178 views 18 replies
Reply #1 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I hear ya. I'm but a humble Logon skinner and as of now, unless you want to hack into the system files, only the wallpaper can be changed. Guess I'll stick with XP ones for now...or if I want a ton of downloads, I could spend 10 minutes and make a couple hundred Vista ones and upload them.
Reply #2 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Vistas start menu is a horrible design...who wants a start menu that you have to scroll?It acts just like a navigation tree!Flyout menus in XP worked just fine for me.

Translucency dosnt work properly around the edges if you have a Start menu that dosnt sit right on the left edge of the screen.

Programs pane,like V said is a skinners nightmare...if you dont skin within very limited parameters,it will look terrible...especially a tiled image with any sort of texture.

If you have hide user icon on,it hides all of the Places icons as well.

The limitations you have to work within(at this time)make Vista a bore to skin.Its no coincidence that all the premium and master vista compatible skins all look very similar in design and color.
Heres praying that Stardock comes to our rescue and gives us something we can work with.FORCE Vista to skin properly.

Theres more but I can only think about skinning Vista in small doses.
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I sit here reading this while contemplating making a Vista version for a skin I am working on. I was going to make a completely seperate skin for Vista but I am not sure now. I don't have Vista so I would rely on testers for importent feedback. It might be too much for nothing.   
Reply #4 from WinCustomize Forums Top
NT vista compatible skins are not too hard to make...just boring...if you dont have Vista for testing tho...you will never nail down the details...Vista dosnt use some wb settings the same as they look in XP.
Reply #5 from WinCustomize Forums Top
As it stands right now , I do believe it would be almost as easy ( at least more efficient) to make a Vista from scratch theme than remake an old one, having said that it is going to depend on the complexity and color schemes of the old theme, especially when your not able to work on the issues apply after apply in Vista.
Reply #6 from WinCustomize Forums Top
You may not remember this, vStyler, but alot of us do.

Remember when WindowsXP first came out? And how little it skinned even then? Alot has improved over the years, with just about everything being skinned.
The same will go for Vista, I think. Stardock will keep experimenting and get a handle on alot of the features we enjoy now. If not, then why come out with Windowblinds 6?
The only problem will be "Patience".
Reply #7 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Of course I remember when XP came out.. I was skinning it too..    

Yeah I realize it will get better, I realize that sooner or later things will change.. hence the
As of right now you can do far less in Vista than you can in XP.
.
Basically it was an indicment of the state of skinning in Vista as it applies today.

I have patience. Theres still plenty of time and users on XP to make skinning XP more worthwhile, at least IMO as of right now

I was asking, what, if anything, Stardock will be doing in WB6 and SKS to address these issues and doing my part as a skinner to make everyone, including SD, aware of them.

Its not a complaint.. its a stating of fact.
Reply #8 from WinCustomize Forums Top
We also hope Stardock can somehow miraculously 'reverse' some some of the dumbass things MS did to the gui.

We fully understand All vista related issues are in their infancy.We want to bring up our babies right.

No one thinks it will stay as it is now...we want to enjoy skinning vista the way we do XP...as it is now,we do not.

Still cant get over a scrolling start menu...sheesh!
Reply #9 from WinCustomize Forums Top
No titlebar text or backgrounds in explorer,no taskbar gripper graphic.No taskpanes?

No delete,up,copy,etc...?No display properties?(personalise sux)Toolbars non configurable,livesearch hard coded in,address bar from hell,window background color is WHITE,dosnt take color assigned by WB.  
Reply #10 from WinCustomize Forums Top
And once again, I'll explain my comment.
My comment was relative and the questions were rhetorical. I would hope that more than 3 or 4 people would read this thread.
For someone who has been skinning for (maybe) only 6 months, might have the same feelings as vStyler. It was a "What if...?" sort of comment. Trying to put their mind at ease, while stating a few facts that most of us already knew.

As for the "Do you remember?", since this is a windowblinds site, I was speaking in terms of windowblinds users, not Visual Styles.

Yes, you have made all valid points and hopefully in the next few weeks, I'll experience them too. (When I get my new computer with Vista). Here's hoping Stardock does things fast, but look how long it took to get XP to were we liked it. They have thier work cut out for them.

Oh, and why didn't Microsoft have a brain and had Stardock design the OS? Can you imagine what it would have looked like?
Reply #11 from WinCustomize Forums Top
As for the "Do you remember?", since this is a windowblinds site, I was speaking in terms of windowblinds users, not Visual Styles.


Why would someone who has been skinning 6 months have the same feelings I have expressed.. I get the feeling that some folks in the WB community have some sort of opinion that someone who has been working in VS isn't qualified enough to post in a WB forum. With VS dying off I imagine their are a lot more of us going to be making the switch. Doesnt make us any less qualified to make judgement. Speaking for myself, I am extremely in tune with both VS and WB formats as they pertain to the windows interface and can skin either quite competently. Skinning experience has very little to do with the points I have made other than its going to be noticed more quickly by an experienced skinner.

When Xp came around VS wasn't very much different from WB, they both had the same basic elements, thats still the same.. These days, as long as you have spent an equal amount of time skinning VS,(5 years in my case)as the veteran WB skinners, then a few weeks getting used to SKS and Per Pixel is all it takes to bridge the gap. Its not a massive culture shock like some people may think..at least it wasnt for me.

I am currectly encouraging all the VS skinners I know to do the same. VS and Stylebuilder may actually be harder than making a WB for the simple fact that you are more limited and have to work around a lot more. I now have experience and am competent in both genres.

As far as Vista Z71, yep, It will take you all of about 30 mins to see what I have pointed out are all things that will inhibit you.. and you too will be curious what is being done for Wb6.

When XP came out it wasn't as dramatically different in its gui design, merely more skinnable. The XP to Vista transition is a totally different animal, much has changed in the UI and not neccesarily in a good way.

I was simply pointing out the deficiencies in Vista as I see it and they exist regardless of skinning experience, format or community.
Reply #12 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Man, I hate the forums. They're only one dimentional and someone's comment can be taken 100 different ways. It all depends on the mood of the person reading it.
I get the feeling that some folks in the WB community have some sort of opinion that someone who has been working in VS isn't qualified enough to post in a WB forum.


You said it, because I never did. I hope you aren't taking anything I said personally, because it was never about you.
As for the 6 months comment, I was talking about "newbies" that have been skinning XP for awhile and may find that, like you, can not skin certain things now.
Was never meant towards you or any of the older skinners.
I made the mistake of trying to address the point of view from all aspects, new to old. Trying to help a few people out. Instead, I stirred the water.
What I should have said was, "XP good. Vista, for now, bad". and left it at that.


Can everyone see why I stopped making comments on the forums for all those years. I try to help and someone will take what I say wrong or think I'm singling them out.
I guess I'm not the forum type person or some people just don't want me around.
Reply #13 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Ohhhhhh.. now i get it , man.. why didn't you just say that to begin with ?

What I should have said was, "XP good. Vista, for now, bad". and left it at that.


  

Yes people can take things 100 different ways, but usually the most obvious is the correct answer.. WWW Link

Occam's razor   

No hard feelings eh?   All I was trying to do was help in the first place...and i guess you were too.

Reply #14 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Ohhhhhh.. now i get it , man.. why didn't you just say that to begin with ?


Because I like rehab and after this, I was really close to needing it.
I'm a southern, country boy, so I don't usually check if what I say will be taken wrong. I just say what I say, about the subject at hand, and not about the person who made the thread.
After all, It was about Vista and not a person.
No harm done, I'm just glad you figured out what I meant. Sometimes, I feel that I need to attach an "addendum" (a page in the back of a book), that explains what I say. Drives me crazy, sometimes. (The "wink" means, take what I just said, tougue in cheek).

After I get Vista, I'll come back here and let y'all know what I think of it. From what you've mentioned already, I'm guessing, it'll be a laundry list.
Reply #15 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Hey, Im a southern country boy too man ...lol.. happened to have been transplanted to Florida 20 years ago from England, but fully redneckized now.

 
Reply #16 from WinCustomize Forums Top
but fully redneckized


I'm a "Roll Tide" Alabama boy. Never heard it used that way before. To funny.
We might want to nip this in the bud, though, before other people turn this into a "You might be a redneck if...." thread. We get enough flack as it is.... 
Gotta go. The wife wants to go to town tonight, which means I've gotta mow the yard to find the car and clean out the trunk.  
Reply #17 from WinCustomize Forums Top
If you gotta mow the yard to find ur car.. u might be a redneck!

on a side note..I always make my ol' lady ride in the trunk when we head to town too.. Its a small world!   
Reply #18 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Redneck jokes?...naw,too easy.