Points systems, blogging and ants...

and why popularity stinks

from JoeUser Forums

Points systems, blogging and ants...

and why popularity stinks...

For the last couple of months there have been a lot of articles about the fairness and the accuracy of the point systems,  some articles were highlighting a few blogs  not fitting their criteria, others were pointing the artificial popularity due to external visitors. I would like to help the debate by proving the opposite. After all, you can always see a glass half empty or half full...and saying that the points systems is not working because 2 or 3 blogs out of the top 30 are bad is necessarily reckoning that 27 are  good... So the questions are:

How can we understand the point system? What are its limitations? Its quality? How can we improve it?

 

First 

Let's try to understand the point system mechanism for the blog angle, we will examine the bloggers point later. Can we find  a simple model to build our investigation? I think that nature can give us a pretty good example by looking to the major other specie on earth. I'm talking about the ants. 

Remember when you were a child and you were observing ants carrying food to the nest. You couldn't help noticing that the linear perfection of their caravan. Ants are very efficient to explore, find and bring back home food. Their high degree of organization compared to the size of their brain is really amazing. Notably, ants are not able to think on their own, there is no chief ants building a plan to lead the ants to their targets. Still they find the way to the food and it is oftenly the shortest path

 

How do they do? 

The solution is the way they communicate. Ants communicate chemically, they emit and detect chemical by using their antennas. For every move they do, each of them release a substance called pheromone. 

The pheromone stay for a certain amount of time on the ground and thus can be used to mark the way. This chemical path can by use by the ant to go back to the nest or by other ants to follow the path for food.

 If the ant find food, it come back home following the pheromone and so leaving a second layer, it will eventually go on until there is no more food to bring back. Consequently the way will be marked by all its return journey.

Other ants in food mission will soon or later find the pheromone path and followed it and thus highlighting even more the way.

The shortest way is logically found by doing the quicker return trip, and so leaving an heavier pheromone route than longer possibility. The pheromone haven't a very long lifetime and thus if a route is not used for a while it will eventually disappear.

Find the scheme website and more explanation here.

 

OK, ants are great but what is the connection to JU point systems?

Even if you don't like the idea, please consider every JoeUser visitors and bloggers to be acting like ants looking for food, but instead Joeusers explore to find, let say "satisfaction". Sorry, I can only see that word to define the purpose of researching with such different and wide interests available. 

If Joeusers are ants, then points are pheromone. Every time someone visit a blog, it leave one point, ticking the interesting or insightful box leave more point. Write a comment and you leave even more point. So like ants, websurfers highlight a way to other bloggers by marking more or less intensely their way.

Logically, blogsites are path that can lead to satisfaction. However, satisfaction is a blur and wide concept, people are hardly looking for the same thing. Some like debating politics, others want small talks other like to shout loudly at everybody else their opinion, and so and so. Back to our six legged friends, that would be translated into different ants wants different foods. 

Another concept important is the different kind of User: anonymous person give less point than regular Joeusers that give less point than  power User that give less than Administrator. Different cats of ants who leave more pheomone because they are considered better to point out good blog.

 

Is that all?

Clearly not. Now that the networks has been defined, and because we are in a dynamic system, we need to understand the influence of time. 

In addition to their point value, articles and comments create their own dynamics. All the blogsites have this dimension, but JU is probably the closest  to a forum and so time dynamic is a very important aspect of the game.

First,  the more article written, the more you give to people the opportunity to visit your blog.

Second, the more comments generated, the more you give to people the opportunity to read an article.

Third,  blogsite points disappear after 30 days.

Watching the dynamic allows us to understand the interaction between bloggers. The points will highlight blogs with discussions. The more talk, the more talker are likely to come. It is fairly important because a lot of people here use the 10 more recent posts list.

If you want to score a lot of point and reach the top 10 blog site, you need people to visit you and to leave some comments. Specially Joeusers or even if can attract a power user. 

 

Are the points highlighting good blogs?

It is a fairly dumb question, what is good, what is bad? The point system show blogs that are appreciated by the most people. If a lot of people like theme about about beetroot jam, then Blogsite explaining regularly how to do beetroot jam and the best way to eat it with pork livers will be top 1. This is a very subjective matter. 

There are obvious theme, politics or porn are always popular. Religion or internet jokes score well. 

 

Networking

There is another huge effect: you need friend. People that visit your blog leave and leave messages. It is different form the previous paragraph, because a cluster of blogger will eventually turn into a clique. You reckon clique member as they leave a lot of pointless comments on each other blogs. Basically it is socializing. It will be illustrated by ants always traveling in small group to the same food supplies, sharing them without going back to the main nest and ultimately creating a different and very dense network full of pheromones. It is a fairly good strategy. Because it will attract into the new network a lot of other ants and make all the members blogsites points increasing a lot.

 

The rise...

 The bigger problem with this system is that top blog will always attract more people than lower blog, it is a question of being on the shop window instead of the back shelves. Regardless of their quality, it is just a statistical effect. One side effect of competition would probably lead to less diversification as once a blog is well established, it is fairly hard to overcome it. Unless the owner stop to blog.

The only way to solve this problem is to ensure a continuous growth of the number of JoeUser. The more users, the more are likely to have different interests and able to constitutes a group big enough to challenge already classic blogs.

 

Invasion

Remembering the Janet Jackson nipple story, a blogsite here went to the top due to a massive number of people wanting to see the infamous picture of nipple. The blogsite had 2 articles previously, but the referral were so big that he hit the jackpot. The most popular theme will always attract a lot of outside visitors and with a relevance given by Google, you can imagine everything. 

Taming the referral is really important if you want to go to the top.

 

So... why popularity stinks?

Back to the pheromone/point arguments,  it has been recognized that pheromone are generated also by human, notably by sweating... so if popularity mean a lot of pheromone...

There will be another article about JoeUser points.

Feel free to highlight any mistakes.

Pheromone

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Pheromones.html

http://mute-net.sourceforge.net/howAnts.shtml

http://www.kuleuven.ac.be/bio/ento/cooper.htm

http://www.rennard.org/alife/english/antsgb.html

http://www.orsoc.org.uk/about/topic/news/att.htm

Bloggers, Pheromones, and Ants

http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=32&thread=3726

Les fourmis

http://www.sfsite.com/03a/emp28.htm

Chaos

http://hypertextbook.com/chaos/

http://i30www.ira.uka.de/~ukrueger/fractals/

Fractal

http://pnorthov.future.easyspace.com/
blogging
12,468 views 21 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
while we're on the subject of points, I think that whoever is responsible for Dan's drop out of 2nd place is being extremely petty and not to mention unfair.  to work that hard to gain a certain spot, only to be brought down in this manner is just wrong... whoever has been trolling away Dan's points should be ashamed of themselves
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

Popularity doesn't necessarily equate to popularity. But on the other hand, all things being equal, the insightful and interesting buttons give a major leg up over other systems I'm aware of.

It is expected, or at least hoped for, that good articles will get linked to by others. That's why my articles are so highly ranked.  My articles get linked to from other sites. For instance, some of my most popular articles are the most popular because other sites liked them enough to link to them.

Examples:

http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?aid=209

That's my article on CD copy protection being a bad idea. It has 125 referrals. Google is obviously one of them but other game sites linked to it as well. JoWood, CodeProject, Mistresslair, Siliconpopculture, Blitzcoder, StarShatter, etc.  People on these sites thought my article was good enough or interesting enough to link to.

Sometimes my articles get linked to on popular blog sites like Instapundit which then brings it to the attention of other bloggers.

Part of that is me going out there and making sure other bloggers know about my articles in the first place.  The person who just writes an article and expects it to magically become super highly ranked is just not being realistic.

Where JoeUser is special is that your articles have a greater chance of visibility than they would on any other blog site. I.e. on JoeUser, you automatically get a lot more readers for your blogs because Joeuser itself promotes you across itself which in turn because of its popularity gets you more visitors than you would otherwise get.  But that's only a start, to get to the next level, the writer has to spread the word.

I wonder, for instance, how many bloggers here have even taken advantage of the RSS feed and registered their blog with RSS aggravators (don't ask me, I don't ahve a handy quick answer,  you'll have to figure out how to do it on your own).

 

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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

Given Dan's behavior, I'm not surprised that people rated his articles as trolling. I know I have on occasion. But to drop down as much as he did, it took quite a number of people marking his responses as trolling.

Not that it matters now, he's gone. I've banned him and he won't be coming back. His behavior is simply unacceptable. He's just too antisocial to have around. He has a toxic personality.

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
While were on the subject of Dan... have you been reading the stuff that he's been writing? I haven't visited his blog for weeks now, because since he started going out of his way to antagonize just about everyone, I lost interest. I wonder if trolling is the problem here, or just a whole lot of other people who have gotten disgusted with the situation and just stayed away....

Paying attention to the real issue, the point system is great if you're competitive, useless if you don't give a shit. I think there are a lot of other readers and writers out there who just like blogging. Their points reflect both the shared interaction and appreciation of this activity. I wonder what percentage of people really take this points thing that seriously versus the ones who don't.

Great article, Jepel. I enjoyed the graphics part, too.
Merci.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
extremely interesting--and I liked the graphics too!

I just don't get the points--my blog site "last 30 days" points don't seem to change. It was zero until the middle of April. I changed once and hasn't changed again. It's just weird.

Also, I hear about these huge point decreases for trolling--but I would imagine you'd have to piss of a lot of people for a drop that large. I tend to reserve the trolling aspect for extreme cases, but I will admit to using out of spite when someone referred to me as a "silly girl."
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

Depends on who marks the trolling.  The higher your access, the more the trolling bites. I suspect him trolling Angie (Karmagirl) and admin didn't help him too much since it's 100 points a shot when an admin marks a response at trolling and he said some incredibly offensive things to her.

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Great article Jepel... Thanks for articulating it so neatly!

It certainly explains a lot... and Brad, i do agree, Dan ost certainly does have a toxic personality, and bad vibes eminated from him... he was a smart dude though, and hopefully he learnt many of lifes valuable lessons whilst here...

BAM!!!
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

he was a smart dude though, and hopefully he learnt many of lifes valuable lessons whilst here...


He didn't learn a darn thing, and that was the problem.  If he had taken even a smidgen of all the advice that was offered, he'd have been tolerable.  As it was he shunned and demeaned all of it (and thereby all the people who gave it).  Well, look where that got him. 


Good article, Jepel. I liked the graphics too.

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Great article Jepel. I enjoyed the comparison of the ants. It was both effective and informative.

And the pictures were great!
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
can someone link to what got dan canned? seems when i moved missed a forum fight/banning, and i always enjoy watching those.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

This the the article he wrote after his temporary exile:

http://dankaschel.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=14414

He also created an alter-persona 'dipique' and made some uncalled for attacks on innocent people.  He created more anonomous user accounts to respond on my blog after I had blacklisted him as 'dipique'.  Dipique's articles are gone, or I'd link to those for you...but here's the link to the comments on my blog...

http://dharmagrl.joeuser.com/articleComments.asp?AID=13043

He used 'Take A Wild Guess' as his user name.

 

 

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
OK everybody

First I 'm very pleased of the interest you had on this article. I wrote it 2 month ago, so it isn't connected to JU current actuality.

Second, this article has nothing to do with Dan. Whatever his own problem or qualities.

Third, on month ago most of the people who are now criticizing Dan were finding him a lot of qualities. Remember that before sending him definitively in exile.

If you are that desp[erate to write about Dan please do your own blog before you come here to do "politicize" my blog with your personal fight.

Ultimately I don't know anything about Dan's situation and why he has managed to build such an opposition against him.

He is a good writer, as far as I'm concern you can like him or not, but you have to respect his blogger's qualities.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Nice article! That was fun to read, and that's a interesting connection between blog site and ants.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks XX and all the people who had enjoyed to read it.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Welcome back Jepel, the way you have correlated popularity on JU with ant activity is truly revolutionary. They must be educating you marvellously at that university you attend in the city of Leicester.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
My Lord,

It isn't revolutionary. In spite I had the idea on my own, I find another blog related to that and written 2 years ago. Please check the link at the end of the article. In addition, ants capacity to form efficient network has been extensively investigated in various area.

Leicester Uni is actually giving me the oportunity to waste my time time on internet....
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
I have written an article concerning bees and blogging, why not have a look dear boy? I used to be quite an entomological enthusiast.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
Networking

There is another huge effect: you need friend. People that visit your blog leave and leave messages. It is different form the previous paragraph, because a cluster of blogger will eventually turn into a clique. You reckon clique member as they leave a lot of pointless comments on each other blogs. Basically it is socializing. It will be illustrated by ants always traveling in small group to the same food supplies, sharing them without going back to the main nest and ultimately creating a different and very dense network full of pheromones. It is a fairly good strategy. Because it will attract into the new network a lot of other ants and make all the members blogsites points increasing a lot.

I like your article. Regarding the above paragraph, I think what you're saying is correct, but I wouldn't put the same interpretation on it. I wouldn't say it is necessarily a "strategy" because for myself, making points is not worth doing little tricks. I like to see large numbers appear at times, but I'm not going to develop a strategy to get them. What I HAVE done is find people that I enjoy reading, and then I get to know them. The more I know of the people who are writing, the more interesting what they have to say is. You call that a clique, perhaps it is, but to me a clique is exclusionary, and I don't feel that way. I relate more to the example of having specific places where I can find more satisfaction, so I go there--it has nothing to do with points, it has to do with relationship (or percieved relationship depending on how we are defining our terms). I have friends IRL that I spend more time with. It's not a clique, it's just that I know them better and we are more deeply connected so the interaction is more meaningful.

Just some thoughts. Again, I really like your article and am looking forward to your upcoming post.

Tractorman
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Networking

There is another huge effect: you need friend. People that visit your blog leave and leave messages. It is different form the previous paragraph, because a cluster of blogger will eventually turn into a clique. You reckon clique member as they leave a lot of pointless comments on each other blogs. Basically it is socializing. It will be illustrated by ants always traveling in small group to the same food supplies, sharing them without going back to the main nest and ultimately creating a different and very dense network full of pheromones. It is a fairly good strategy. Because it will attract into the new network a lot of other ants and make all the members blogsites points increasing a lot.

I like your article. Regarding the above paragraph, I think what you're saying is correct, but I wouldn't put the same interpretation on it. I wouldn't say it is necessarily a "strategy" because for myself, making points is not worth doing little tricks. I like to see large numbers appear at times, but I'm not going to develop a strategy to get them. What I HAVE done is find people that I enjoy reading, and then I get to know them. The more I know of the people who are writing, the more interesting what they have to say is. You call that a clique, perhaps it is, but to me a clique is exclusionary, and I don't feel that way. I relate more to the example of having specific places where I can find more satisfaction, so I go there--it has nothing to do with points, it has to do with relationship (or percieved relationship depending on how we are defining our terms). I have friends IRL that I spend more time with. It's not a clique, it's just that I know them better and we are more deeply connected so the interaction is more meaningful.

Just some thoughts. Again, I really like your article and am looking forward to your upcoming post.

Tractorman
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dear tractorman,

You are totally right, this article is not supposed to described human feeling, just networking strategy. I think that you can follow a tactic without explicitely thinking so. May be that ants just like to follow the smell of others ants, and not just their instinct to bring back food.

The clique word is from another blogger, and i don't mean it in a bad way. I should have used cluster.

Thanks for your comments.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
I should have used cluster.


I completely agree with what you're saying when you use the word cluster.

Tractorman