Tova7 Tova7

Man enough

Man enough

My 11 year old son, Hunter, punched another boy, J, in the face at school a couple weeks ago.

Our family is familiar with J.  He attended a sleep over in our home earlier this winter.  His mom showed up to drop him off an hour early, in shorts (it was 20 degrees outside), with no tooth brush, pajamas, coat, or anything.

It can be difficult keeping track of Hunter's numerous friends.  I remember J  because the entire time he was in our home my son was constantly saying, “don’t do that!”

For example, this kid walked through my house putting his hands on everything including art work on the wall.  My son told him several times not to touch the crystal in the china cabinet, get out of the cabinets, leave the sewing machine alone, etc.  Just annoying little things like that.

After J left, (his mom was two hours late picking him up), my son fell on the couch and said, “WHEW!”

While Hunter remained friends with J at school, he never invited him back over.

So a couple weeks ago Hunt came home from school and said, “I got into a fight today at school mom.”

I said, “Huh?  What happened?”

He said, “Remember J?”

I nodded.

“Well he sits beside me at lunch.  (They eat at metal picnic type tables.) We have assigned spots.  He takes stuff off my tray.”

“You mean food?”  I asked.

Hunter nodded.  “Yeah.  And every time I tell him to give it back.  But he doesn’t.  So I have to get the attention of one of the teachers and have them make him give it back.”

“How many times has this happened?”  I asked.

“Three,” Hunter said.  “And everyday there are different teachers in the lunch room.”

“What do they say to him?”  I asked.

Hunter shrugged.  “They just tell him, ‘give hunter back his food.’  Then they go about their business.”

Ok.

He continues, “So today he took my candy bar.  I told him to give it back.  He wouldn’t.  So I grabbed it from him.  He got mad and pushed me, but I just kept eating and ignored the push.  But then he got really mad because I ignored his push and shoved me really hard.  I fell off the end of the bench onto the floor taking some of my food with me.”

“Why didn’t you just ask a teacher to make him give it back?”  I asked.

“Because I am tired of it mom.  They don’t ever do anything to him, and he knows better!  So I just took it back.”

“Then what?”  I asked.

“So I got up off the floor, sat down, and punched his face.”

“Did he hit you back?”  I asked.

Hunter shook his head.  “No.  He just turned really red and was quiet the rest of lunch period.”

“So how did you get in trouble?”  I asked.

He said, “One of the kids at the table saw it happen and told on us after lunch.  I know I’m in trouble mom.  But I was done.  I’m not taking it anymore.  How many times do I have to let him take something from me?  I’m ready for punishment.”

We talked about alternate responses briefly.  I sent him to his room and called the school (after listening to a message his principal left on my machine).

I verified the story with the principal.

So here is how the conversation with the principal went.

“Mrs. Tova, Hunter punched another child in the eye today,” Mr. D said.

“Can you tell me what happened?”  I asked (because I wanted to make sure I was getting the whole story.)

“That’s what Hunter told me,” I said.

“Well, the consequences of hitting another student is suspension.”  Mr D said.

Before I could say anything…

“But since Hunter has no record of violence, or even of temper according to his teachers, I am going to let him serve one day of in- school suspension in my office.”

“Ok,” I said.  “I’ve talked with Hunter and explained that he can’t be fighting at school.  I also told him I’d rather he get in trouble for getting up out of his seat without permission to move from a volatile situation, than getting into trouble fighting.  But frankly, the kid deserved it.”

Long pause.

“I’m, um, sorry you feel that way.”  Mr D said.  “If Hunter was having problems with this child he should have come to me.”

I laughed.  “He went to three separate teachers and got no satisfaction.  I remember fifth grade well Mr D and I don’t think going to the principal about a problem was EVER an option in my mind.”

Another long pause.

“So is the other child being disciplined?”  I asked.

“No.”

“WHAT?  He at the very least provoked Hunter.  He is not being disciplined?”  I said.

“No,” Mr D said.  “Shoving someone to the ground is not hitting.  We have rules against hitting.  Kids shove each other all the time.”

I said, “What about taking things that don’t belong to you?  What about making a habit of doing it?  Aren’t there rules against that?”

“Hunter should have come to me,” Mr D said.

Got off the phone and called my son back into the kitchen.

I told Hunter the in school suspension was punishment enough.  He wasn’t in any trouble at home.  But I emphasized he needed to walk away from an explosive situation before it escalated. 

Since his dad is gone, I was wondering if I handled it ok.  Frankly, I was in a lot of fights all through out school and for a lot less provocation.  But since Columbine, schools are totally freaked out about any kind of fighting.  They have classes and teach kids how to tell on the other children.

So when I finally was able to talk with my husband he said, “Good job!  I am so proud of him.”

I told my husband the principal didn’t agree.

My husband assured me “boys are gonna fight” and was glad to know Hunter was able to stand up for himself.

This is the kind of thing that reminds me how much boys need their dads.  I didn’t have a “normal” childhood, so I can’t use that as a template for my kids.  And I was never a boy.  It seems there are lots of wrong ways to handle it, and only a few good ones, and being a man (who was once a boy) gives most men the wisdom.

Since this incident J still interacts with Hunter in games and class, but has stopped taking his food and trying to annoy him.

It makes me wonder how much is heading my way that only a dad can really handle well.

 

And if I'm man enough for the job.

12,846 views 64 replies
Reply #51 Top
My husband said this set a precedent for Hunter with the other kids. He may be laid back and non confrontational, but when pushed, he will push back.


A) I think you did a good job.
B) I think Hunter sounds remarkably balanced and self-controlled.
C) Unless he meets a psycho in class it will indeed set a precedent that ought to save him some grief in time to come. Also, there's nothing quite so self-empowering as sending some annoying little sh*t grovelling to the ground - especially after dealing manfully with said little sh*t for quite some time previously.

Being male I see nothing wrong with male aggression per se. So far from seeing anything wrong with it I think it's necessary to the mental health of your average male that a) he acknowledges the violence within himself and does so without shame; and b) that he learns to express that violence in a measure appropriate to the situation.

Hunter did a fine job. He smacked the obnoxious toad in question in the eye - and then stood (or sat) back. The toad learned a valuable lesson about other people's limits and left him alone, while Hunter learned that a judicious use of violence at the right time and in the right degree can improve life for himself and others.

A happy outcome all round. And you're right. There are times when you just have to stand up and say "Enough."

As for D, he's obviously a spineless little twit and not fit for his job.
Reply #52 Top
I was at my daughter's school the other day and saw three boys file into the principal's office. A fourth was sitting outside fuming. I smiled at him and said, "What are you in for?" He looked at me and said, "Two of those boys, they've got pink slips for " well, I can't quote him exactly, he was a sixth grader and upset and mostly incoherent, but the basic story is a couple of boys have been bullying him and his buddy and now they were in the pricipal's office. THis particular boy wasn't involved in the current incident, but wanted to be heard and was willing to wait his turn.

I admired him for that. A sixth-grader who only wanted to say his piece.

Good for him, and kudos to his parents.

After the boys came out, I said only loud enough for them to hear, "You little PUNK."

I wanted to hang them up by their toenails. Good thing I'm not a middle school principal!!!

And BOY as I glad I was only there for an administrative reason!!

You did a fine job, but I would maybe contact those three teachers, got their story, and re-contacted the principal, if only to follow up.

Bullies canNOT be tolerated.

<-- my two cents

X
Reply #53 Top

After the boys came out, I said only loud enough for them to hear, "You little PUNK."

hahahah.  This just cracks me up for some reason.  I guess because it reminds me of the time Hunter was three and on a public play ground.  He went up a really tall slide and a kid about ten years old, shoved him down it.

Hunter cried and I stood at the bottom of the slide daring the little brat to come down.  I was so mad.

Hunter did a fine job. He smacked the obnoxious toad in question in the eye

Buwhahaha.  Yeah, he sure did.  I am still, even a few weeks later, marveling at the mental picture.  Hunter is such a "good" boy.  He could be the poster child for non-violence, well he could have been, now no one messes with him.

 

Reply #54 Top
Hey T I just got this email about diff scenarios between 1973 and 2006 and this excerpt was part of that and I thought of you:

Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.

1973- Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends. Nobody goes to jail, nobody arrested, nobody expelled.
2006- Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.

Reply #55 Top

1973- Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends. Nobody goes to jail, nobody arrested, nobody expelled.
2006- Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.

Sad, but still funny!

Reply #56 Top
"I am sorry to read this Dan. We have something in common. My mom did the same kind of thing, except she never attempted to bridge any gaps. I don't hold any anger against her now (but you can bet I had a boat load when I was 25). I hope you get past your anger toward your dad."

Nothing to be worried about. I just wanted to write that it does have an effect, emotional at times, but I can switch that off real easy.

That is my way of getting past it. For me he is just a stranger though not one I would say hello to on the street, give the time of day, or hold the door for.

Might be over-exaggering it a bit there KFC. Lots of this stuff goes on, and if that one kid hadn't reported it and left it alone these boys would have settled it themselves. Usually when adults act it's because they actually get the report of 1 out of 5 or so incidents and just make a decision as they see fit.

If kids weren't capable escalating these types of situations by entering guns into the fray, and adults weren't stupid and irresponsible enough to make guns available and accessible to children a SWAT team response to situations wouldn't sometimes be the unfortunate and immediately needed response to a situation.

From talking to police during on of my former jobs, while they were on break, they have stated their department's plan of action is for every officer to rush to the scene form into four cop teams, and storm the building not even waiting for the SWAT. They also shoot on sight anybody with guns. They shoot to kill, not to wound, or stop, to kill.

Unfortunately, our society has allowed this type of thing to actually happen, it has escaped the Pandora's box.

So we should be relieved when it is confined to fist fights, and right or wrong the school administrators are going to discourage any type of violent conflict whatsoever. I guess they view shoving as just general play, while punching is violence. A curious distinction.

In the workplace its basically keep your hands to yourself but I guess that all depends on where you work.
Reply #57 Top
Might be over-exaggering it a bit there KFC


well ya, maybe a bit but it's probably not that far off. When my son was in middle school he drew a picture of a bomb on the Titanic after the teacher asked them to illustrate a way the Titanic may have gone down. She was so alarmed at the "bomb" picture she called me right away to inform me. She told me she was supposed to really report this to the principal. She said she didn't because she knew my son was from a good family and that I would take care of it.

I thought it was really overboard but hey, that's just the way it is today.

Here's another scenerio: I do know one kid who had a rifle in his truck and went to school with it still in his vehicle. We live in a rural area where hunting is supreme. It wasn't pretty.

Scenario: Jack goes duck hunting before school, pulls into school parking lot with shotgun in gun rack.

1973- Vice Principal comes over, takes a look at Jack's shotgun, goes to his car and gets his to show Jack.
2006- School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.

The world has changed in a real big way.



Reply #58 Top
"She was so alarmed at the "bomb" picture she called me right away to inform me."

LOL.

"Everbody knows there were no nukes used in the civil war." -comment by one of my french teachers in high school.

"rifle in his truck and went to school"

This is what they saw, and for good reason. Just not legal anymore. Columbine.

"1973- Vice Principal comes over, takes a look at Jack's shotgun, goes to his car and gets his to show Jack."

1973. Well it's not 1973 anymore is it. Unfortunately, the events of our generation have made life a lot less of an adventure in some areas of it.

"The world has changed in a real big way."

Yes it has.
Reply #59 Top
Really though he's not my father because he didn't support my mom, and I saw that, and I know that to be a no-no, so on top of being a loser of a man ( as unbiased as I can be ), a piss poor father, and a terrible ex, he was also a slouch when it came to being the financial support for myself and sibling(s). My mom really never went after him, because she didn't want to invite the custody battle again, and he never really was able to provide that support because he would work for a time and then quit and job drift from job to job. Now he lives off the government and veteran benefits. In other words he's a real winner.


*aghast* When I dop it, it's "whining"; when you do it, it's "therapy".

Hypocrite.
Reply #60 Top
Was I whining or just accurate describing my father in the context of the title of the article?

"Man enough"

Does a man choose to have children with a medical condition that is not under control?
Does a man choose to abandon his medications and endanger his family?
Does a man remove himself from his support structure and fight a custody battle for 2 years with his wife who is clearly by all opinions able to provide a better care for the children?
Does a man cut himself off from his children after failing them and his wife, for years and then try to come back and pretend as if nothing has happened?
Does a man not accept his failings and try to make amends and apologize?

Well Gid, you are the expert you tell us. I would recommend you confine you frustration, anger, and inability to deal with my written words to your own blogs.

Show me some evidence that my father is man enough to be considered by me to be so?

Reply #61 Top
Was I whining or just accurate describing my father in the context of the title of the article?


I read it as in context, not whining at all and I appreciate the contribution.  
Reply #62 Top
I believe it was in context as well. I don't like to share personal information about myself unless it is of some direct value to someone else, in this case, and in FEW others, have I made the effort or point to explain it.

Gid is just perhaps pissed because I called him on his consistent negativism and attitude regarding life and reality. He has let it spread to this thread. He has also accused me of being a liberal, nazi, communist, and someone who doesn't know Americans, among other things and lately, a know it all, not to mention most recently a "knat".

Well which is it Gid?

Usually, when I make accusations or suggestions about someone's character, I provide some measure of fact to go along with it or at least some examples. That's below Gid though, he just rips and tears reputation regardless of fact or reason.

Welcome to Joe User right?

Was this post before or after you said you had nothing to say to me anymore, because I was a "knat" Gid?

After. But I think it's I, the snotty 26 year old who shall say good day to you Gid.

It really is too bad, and damed discouraging for adult life and example setting, that people twice my age cannot stand a differing opinion on subjects. So much so they need to result to personal attacks that carry over to multiple threads.

Damned immature at that, as well.
Reply #63 Top
It really is too bad, and damed discouraging for adult life and example setting, that people twice my age cannot stand a differing opinion on subjects. So much so they need to result to personal attacks that carry over to multiple threads.


hahahaha I don't think Gid would like this. First I'm older than Gid, and I'm not twice your age. In fact I would guess that Gid is almost smack in the middle of you and me as far as age is concerned. Just because he's married with a carload of kids....doesn't make him old......just fertile!!

BTW....I have a 24 year old son. I could be your mom!!
Reply #64 Top
I wasn't being critical of him being old, or fertile, just immature and whiny.