Yarlen Yarlen

Regarding Used Copies of GalCiv II

Hi all,

A few people have been running into problems where they've purchased a used copy of GalCiv II, or one off eBay, and they're told that their serial number's already been used. It is against Stardock's license terms to sell used copies of the game, and as such, they will not be supported. If you have a game that falls into this category and have been unable to register it with us, we now have a knowledgebase article with some options at the URL below.

601,588 views 249 replies
Reply #176 Top

I'd just like to add, if anyone has used steam software, for use with say half-life, half-life 2, counter-strike etc. That's probably the best way to deal with this problem.

Almost everyone has an internet connection, be it dial up or otherwise. It wouldn't be too difficult to make people sign into an online game manager program that allows selections of stardocks products, similar to stardock central. If you don't have the internet, then you can't use this product. If people can download their files, and it install the games for them, I'm sure the simplicity of the program would be appreciated by users.

It's easily verified, the games cdkey locked to your personal account, less piracy problems. You would have to sell your entire account to someone to resell your products, which means you would lose all of them. At the same time, you can change your personal information, give them access to the account, and they can change the password. They now safely have the game, with the serial, and there will be no validation issues.

I fail to see what Stardock Central is missing when reading your proposal. The only thing I see is the requirement to have an online activation before playing a game bought at retail

Reply #177 Top

I think the ability to transfer licenses permanently within Stardock accounts is the best solution.

But something must be done to prevent serial Id stealing. So it must be the current owner of a serial id that should initiate the transfer. Currently the problem is that all your serial id are linked in the same account. If the owner of a Stardock account could transfer one of his serial ids to another Stardock account that may respond to some requests about using second hand copies. And the serial Id will always be linked to a single e-mail.

But this requires 2 things:

- that Stardock changes their policy about second hand copy and implements to mechanism to allow a user to transfer as serial id to another user

- more important, that the original owner of the serial id uses this mechanism to transfer the serial id to the new owner

And I am pretty sure that there are lots of nasty and tricky details (about security and others) to have something reliable working.

Reply #178 Top
Yes, that is what I meant, but I doubt it would be that difficult. Yes, of course, the current license holder would be the only one who could transfer, but other than that, it should be a matter of moving one entry around in the database.

Then when someone came around complaining about that, they could just be told, "set up a stardock account, then contact the person you got it from and request that he transfer the licence to you."

But I suppose there are other concerns that could follow.

Still, I think asking people not to be able to resell to give away the game is ridiculous. I no of no one else who asks that. I can sort of understand why, and legally they can, I suppose, but that doesn't make it right.

But, if they at least made an effort to shut down second sales through ebay, then they would spare a LOT of the people from having this problem in the first place.

By the way, from what I've seen Stardock's support is terrific and they deal very well with the customers. I'm not trying to say that. I'm just saying that in trying to avoid one problem they've inadvertantly created another.
Reply #179 Top
if you guys read this month's issue of PC Gamer where it has the picture of a starcraft 2 marine on the cover, it has an article that talks about how to return open box games/software. It has to do with whether if you agress with the EULA liscence before installing the game.
Reply #180 Top
But, if they at least made an effort to shut down second sales through ebay, then they would spare a LOT of the people from having this problem in the first place.


(Personal opinions only here)

Not likely. Every time I happen by ebay I do a quick search for GC2 and report all the counterfeit auctions (ignoring for the moment the used ones, though the counterfeits do always say they are used as an excuse for not including a serial).

Not once have I ever seen one of the auctions I reported taken down before it ends and someone buys the bootleg. Ever. And as far as I'm aware (I asked) they don't have any way for the company to report such problems aside from the same avenues regular users have available.
Reply #181 Top
I think the threat of a lawsuit would do it. Or at least a serious discussion and complaint that they are allowing illegal activity, which technically, they are.

But you all are probably too nice, and likely too poor, to resort to such heavy-handed tactics. Which leaves us where we were before.

I'll just lay the blame on ebay here, expecially as it looks like you guys have already made some effort along these lines, and move on.
Reply #182 Top
There isn't much that I can say that hasn't been said already in this rather expansive thread. I picked up a new copy of GalCiv1 and a used copy of GalCiv2 at ebgames without knowing much about the game. It looked neat. Then I discovered buying something means you don't own it. It is annoying that I won't be able to update GalCiv2 & be stuck with a buggy version..

I like the idea of no copy protection on the CDs. Mine always get scratched with the constant in and out, plus my young son likes shiny things. So that is a very good thing.

The thing that really bugs me though is that the dishonest person, the one who registered the serial and then pirated the game to ebgames, gets to keep playing & updating the game free and clear for life. Meanwhile, the honest person, who paid for what he thought was a legit copy, gets the shaft. A significant downside to the form of 'copy protection' that Stardock uses.

I agree that somewhere on the box it should say that online registration is required for updates. This would have been honest and upfront (not hiding in the EULA as is the practice of microsucks). I certainly wouldn't have bought the game had I known beforehand. I avoid 'online registration' or valve like the plague.

I also agree that by buying a used copy, Stardock doesn't make any money from me so they shouldn't have to support my copy of the game. However, what Stardock could be missing is the literal truth that they won't make any money off me, period.

My experience so far means that I won't be going and purchasing another, new, copy of GalCiv2. Or it's expansion pack(s). Or GalCiv1 expansion packs. Or the future GalCiv3 & its expansion packs. And so on. I'll just skip the GalCiv series altogether and move on to one of many other games in my 'to play' pile. There are enough other games and other developers out there vying for my cash that I can pick and choose.

In the end, Stardock keeps dishonest seller/pirater of game, loses honest buyer of used game. A great anti-piracy sales model if I've ever seen one.

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Reply #183 Top

I avoid 'online registration' or valve like the plague.

Why? BTW, the activation in GC2 means that your serial id and your e-mail are registred on SDC servers. And this allows you to still be able to get the game even if you lost your serial id, as long as you still have your e-mail.

 

 

Reply #184 Top
The GC2 policy on used copies is still pretty much win-win though, since the person that got the used copy really shouldnt have expected support anyway, so its a lot like buying a shareware copy. Since GC2 gets updated and improved all the time (been like 18 months now) it pretty much fits a shareware model. The thing that sucks is that someone buying a used copy complete with box, as a common storefront like EBgames will be pretty pissed but they can still return it. Itd be nice if the CD front had part of the EULA in bold print----NOT FOR RESALE or RESALE voids Serial number or something like READ EULA before buying. Still itd be even better if someone could legitimately sell their serial thru Stardock--but unpractical because itd surely be unprofitable. EDIT: If anything its strictly the EBgames, etc.. who are dishonest since theyre selling shareware without making it clear that its shareware. Probably Stardock should clear it up with the resellers, but even if 1.0 is buggy its always caveat emptor. And its still a good anti-piracy model since CDs suck.
Reply #185 Top
Ah too funny. I just bought a used copy at EB. Now I find this out. I hold EB to blame for this don't worry. I also plan on taking this up the director chain of command to EB so they pull all used copies of Galciv2 off their shelves, because obviously they are ripping people off.

But if I were the EB CEO your new copies would also be pulled from the shelves and shipped back.

Seriously tho, Have you folks ever thought of sending a notice out to the big retailers explaining the limitations of purchasing a galactic civ used copy?

I'm in the process of taking this up with EB marketing. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Reply #187 Top
aamazingmon,
did anyone mention somewhere in the parts of this thread that you have viewed, that in your situation you are supposed to be able to contact [email protected] (or maybe it is support@stardock .com) and purchase a renewed/replacement serial/license for a discount from the boxed price?

drrider
Reply #188 Top
aamazingmon,
did anyone mention somewhere in the parts of this thread that you have viewed, that in your situation you are supposed to be able to contact [email protected] (or maybe it is support@stardock .com) and purchase a renewed/replacement serial/license for a discount from the boxed price?
drrider


for the price of a renewed serial PLUS a used copy you might as well just purchase the game new.

Reply #189 Top
Let's say you buy a used car...a Ford for instance.
When you get it, the engine is missing.
Why would Ford have any responsibility for the situation?

If the person who sold you the game rips you off, rip that *seller's* throat, not StarDocks.
Reply #190 Top
for the price of a renewed serial PLUS a used copy you might as well just purchase the game new.


Exactly! Excellent use of basic economics vs puntative measures on Stardock's part.

However, the circumstances we are discussing here address the case of someone who has already purchased/recieved as gift/etc the media and code for the game.

drrider
Reply #191 Top
Hi, actually, for this discussion a better example can be given. Think of "CRAFTSMAN" tools: "Warranteed forever." Get a replacement at any time if not 100% satisfied. No receipt required. The brand word “Craftsman” stamped on the tool is sufficient. It does not matter who you are, or when, or where you bought it. It does not matter if you bought the tool personally or if it was bought by your grandmother literally100 years ago. It is a genuine “Craftsman” tool in your physical possession, which makes you the legitimate owner of the tool and entitled to ALL benefits available. In realty, only a very small percentage of tools ever get traded back to the store for a replacement/ upgrade; but the fact that you CAN do this generates such good will that the average person will be a lifelong repeat customer. That the customer will buy 20 more “craftsman” tools generates far more than enough profit to offset the cost of the one tool under warrantee. For the store’s part, it doesn’t matter to them who has possession of the tool because the warrantee applies to the tool itself, not a person. “X” many tools in existence equals “X” many transactions. It is a successful business model emulated by countless other manufacturers.

Relate this model to the way “Stardock” SHOULD do business in regards to GAL CIV. “X” number of game disks are physically manufactured. “Y” numbers of games are downloaded from the website. This translates into “Z” number of serial numbers, which is the primary focus for discussion. Stardock makes its money from the initial purchase. If a purchaser keeps the game for a year and Stardock puts out one update every 4 months, then 3 update downloads will occur. If that person kept the game 8 months, updated 2 times, then gave the game to someone else for 4 months who did 1 update, then the same 3 updates would still occur. “Z” number of serial numbers equals “Z” number of patch downloads. The number of times the serial numbers change hands is IRRELAVENT to the number of requests for service to the product. It costs no more to service the product no matter how many times the product changed physical possession from one person to another. It would take less time to change a serial number registration from one person to another than the amount of time its taking me to type this rather lengthy posting . An email with a photo of the disks with the serial number on the jewel case should be sufficient to establish possession of a legit copy. The small amount of time (i.e. labor cost) to do the change will be much more than offset by the goodwill it will generate because goodwill usually translates into future purchases (read: future revenue $$$) not only by that person, but by others who hear of the product and the “good service” associated with it.

Stardock: PLEASE HEED THE MASSES!!!!!

PS. If this policy is ever changed for the benefit of the user, I would probably then spend more money on Dark Avatar and other Stardock products.
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Reply #192 Top
This is very simple, I am not sure why you guys are writing walls of text.

Stardock owes no one ANYTHING except for the original retail release of the game (should the game have been acquired legally). They already provide MORE then that. Essentially EVERYONE is free to play this game as it can be obtained legally (through retail purchase), marginally legally (through second hand), and illegally (through piracy). Due to Stardock's OVERWHELMINGLY generous philosophy of not including copy protection, theoretically anyone of the face of the earth can play GalCiv2. If you purchased the game, this is all you deserve, a playable 1.0 (initial release/first version). If you stole the game, lucky you, you still get to enjoy it. THIS IS ALL ANYONE HAS A RIGHT TO DEMAND. You are owed NOTHING beyond this point, no matter how you acquired the game.

Thankfully, the good people at Stardock choose to give their most dedicated customers (those whom have a retail purchase at likely a higher price) the gift of patches (which indeed turn this game in to a masterpiece). That is their own prerogative and choice. They owe you nothing. Either enjoy your 1.0 or buy a retail copy. If you choose to do neither, then quit crying. No one wants to read it.
Reply #193 Top
Here is a question... Is it possible for someone who has bought a used copy of Galactic Civ II to call Stardock and purchase a new license for the game? I bought my used copy from a friend, original box and all, and would love to be able to play online...I love the game...but I can't do it with the original license serial that the game came with because it has been used. Can I purchase a new license? and if so, how much do they cost?
Reply #194 Top
Can I purchase a new license?


Yes, you can inquire about this with [email protected].
Reply #195 Top

(Personal opinions only here)
(snip)
Not once have I ever seen one of the auctions I reported taken down before it ends and someone buys the bootleg. Ever. And as far as I'm aware (I asked) they don't have any way for the company to report such problems aside from the same avenues regular users have available.


What you are looking for to protect Stardock IP, is the VeRO program. I'm not sure of the process to get into it, but start from here:

Ebay Vero program help page

I believe you actually have to be employed by the rights owner in order to use it.
[edit: link fixed]
Reply #196 Top
eBay should be policing this and not allow reselling games since in most cases that clearly violates EUA and possibly copyright/IP laws.
Reply #197 Top

Hi, actually, for this discussion a better example can be given. Think of "CRAFTSMAN" tools: "Warranteed forever." Get a replacement at any time if not 100% satisfied. No receipt required. The brand word “Craftsman” stamped on the tool is sufficient.



Actually, that is a terrible example to use as an analogy for software/IP. The Craftsman tool is a physical item. You cannot "make copies" of it. There is no way to "crack" it so that more than one person can use the product simultaneously. And you certainly can't get it off a torrent. The car analogies are just as flawed. In the U.S., a PC game is Intellectual Property, while cars and tools and other physical objects are not. You can say that the CD-ROM is a physical item, but then you are only talking about the disc, not any information contained on it, which is IP. If the CD-ROM is physically damaged/defective, you are entitled to a replacement that will work (i.e.: allows you access to the IP encoded on the disc in accordance with the license agreement). I think much of the emotional response comes from people unknowingly conflating one type of property law with another, which can cause things to seem unfair or unbalanced to those not versed in the differences.



The number of times the serial numbers change hands is IRRELAVENT to the number of requests for service to the product. It costs no more to service the product no matter how many times the product changed physical possession from one person to another.



You miss a major point here, because you are looking at GalCiv2 as if it were a socket wrench or an automobile. It is IP -- it is entertainment. Consider a movie theatre that sells tickets for $10. After the movie starts, say half the seats are still empty. Well, it won't cost the theatre a dime to let people in for free to fill up the empty seats, will it? Why should they force people who don't want to spend $10 to stand outside instead of letting them in at least up to the number of empty seats? What kind of greedy, draconian policy is that?

From Stardock's perspective, if you buy GalCiv2, play it, beat it, then uninstall it and sell it to someone else, they have essentially lost a sale (assuming the person who buys it second-hand wanted to play it, which is a fair assumption). Notice that there is no piracy or theft involved here, since the original owner has uninstalled the game, yet the loss is just as real as if you paid for a ticket to get into the theatre, then opened the rear door from the inside to let your friend in. Your friend is only taking up an empty seat anyway, so his free view of the movie does not hurt anyone else's experience of the movie. And hey, since you bought the full price ticket, it's only fair that your buddy offset some of your cost by paying you a bit for letting him in, right? And when your friend gives you $5, they certainly feel entitled to something for their money, even if the theatre was not involved in that private transaction. (Yes, this is illegal in a movie theatre. Then again, Stardock does not allow resale of GalCiv2 in their EULA, yet clearly many people are reselling it anyway, so here we are.)

You can complain that those empty seats are just collecting dust, that it doesn't cost the business any extra to present the show with those seats filled as opposed to being left void, that they got their money from the half that paid anyway, and it's bad for the environment to regulate the temperature of a large room only half-filled... establishing a moral obligation for the theatre to let some people in for free. Of course, if that were to happen, then those who paid full price for their tickets would feel rather silly, and next time they would try to be in the "lucky" group that didn't have to pay full price. The theatre's business is in real jeopardy when people start to realize that they can just split the cost with a friend instead of buying their own ticket. And it spirals out of control when people go from being willing to sneak into a theatre to feeling entitled to do so. (Empty seats! The bastards!)



The small amount of time (i.e. labor cost) to do the change will be much more than offset by the goodwill it will generate because goodwill usually translates into future purchases (read: future revenue $$$) not only by that person, but by others who hear of the product and the “good service” associated with it.



The goodwill generated by the generous movie theatre above would be considerable. They would have packed houses every night! But the movie-going public would not benefit when the theatre goes out of business. If a significant proportion of their customers started "sharing" their ticket access with their friends so that the net result is a sharp drop in ticket sales, even as the audience grows, then the theatre will surely fail. (They could try to survive the new policy by doubling the price of each ticket, but this move would undoubtedly alienate many customers, resulting in even greater revenue loss.)

In any event, the lack of "good service" you are complaining about is to those who choose not to buy their own ticket, but to pick up a used one for less money -- money that Stardock never saw. (And still, they are allowed to install and play the game anyway, just not get updates beyond 1.1) As it is now, Stardock has an exemplary customer service record and tremendous goodwill from all their customers who buy tickets.

Like most here, I applaud Stardock for eschewing DRM on the CD-ROMs and just keeping their rein on the Registration Code. This is very friendly to end-users, since StarForce, SecuROM, SafeDisc, et al, treat all customers as if they were criminals by default, relieve you of your Fair Use backup rights, and can even cause intractable problems with your PC. The actual (and only) problem with Stardock's policy, IMHO, is that their exists a legitimate PC game aftermarket, catered to by such businesses as Half.com, Amazon Marketplaces, eBay, and many others. Since this second-hand business is (often) legal as well as pervasive, I am most concerned that a law-abiding individual does not know about the resale policy on GalCiv2, and will unwittingly be scammed by unscrupulous or careless resellers more easily with this title than with other titles. It seems a real shame that many people buy a second-hand copy of this game in good faith, only to discover the registration restrictions after they come to this site and read this thread. That is seriously unfortunate. To my mind, the way to deal with that is full, obvious disclosure -- not buried in the EULA, but displayed prominently on the box and the CD-ROMs (as they are often separated) and accompanied by concerted efforts to get the word out to any and all who do business in second-hand software that GalCiv2 cannot be updated unless purchased NEW.

That is the only part of this affair that could use some fine-tuning: mitigating the chances of buyers taken completely by surprise by Stardock's resale policy.
Reply #198 Top
I've always found it amusing how god-fearing, law-abiding, forever-green and impecable examples of solid morality some become over this, absolute paragon's of vertue. Anything to defraud the Company of a licence fee. They cant see the utter irony of calling in those virtues over this issue   

I chuckled about this to my son recently, he is a record producer and has similar issues with CD piracy. His reply shook even my cynical mindset on this.

Its quite a topic of conversation in the industries affected - software, movies, songs etc etc. He knew of Stardocks stance on the issue and their approach to it, despite not being a Galciv player (working on him, he's kinda stubborn tho  ). He gave an interesting perspective on it all, centered around the copyright warning video thats at the start of most DVDs. Most have seen it now, very irritating on some as you cant skip the damn thing on some DVDs - where it goes through dire warnings of theft "you wouldnt steal a car would you?" "you wouldnt steal a handbag would you?"

(Naughty Naughty - you law abiding thug you - not going there on this thread   )

The industry did some serious research, and had a terrifying result, hence the video clip - a Huge number out there really did not understand that taking the DVD/CD contents and reselling/giving them away/illegal Club viewings/P2P - yaddie yadda - was in fact theft. At first I couldnt believe it, but then he went through it in some detail, the background, the research and the result.

Mindblowing - they say that the only time you stop learning is the day you die - I used to tell him that in his youth - well he certainly proved it with a vengance on this one....
Reply #199 Top
(...)you are looking at GalCiv2 as if it were a socket wrench or an automobile. It is IP -- it is entertainment. Consider a movie theatre that sells tickets for $10. After the movie starts, say half the seats are still empty. Well, it won't cost the theatre a dime to let people in for free to fill up the empty seats, will it? Why should they force people who don't want to spend $10 to stand outside instead of letting them in at least up to the number of empty seats? What kind of greedy, draconian policy is that?

From Stardock's perspective, if you buy GalCiv2, play it, beat it, then uninstall it and sell it to someone else, they have essentially lost a sale (assuming the person who buys it second-hand wanted to play it, which is a fair assumption). Notice that there is no piracy or theft involved here, since the original owner has uninstalled the game, yet the loss is just as real as if you paid for a ticket to get into the theatre, then opened the rear door from the inside to let your friend in.
(...)

That is the only part of this affair that could use some fine-tuning: mitigating the chances of buyers taken completely by surprise by Stardock's resale policy.


Well, I'm completely happy with Stardock licensing policy. I actually love it. But then, I was perfectly aware of it *before* buying their software, and nobody forced me to buy if I didn’t like the deal. I can understand why those that didn’t have a way to know about resale would be a little unhappy.
Anyhow, as much as I like the analogy with the theatre, it is a bit flawed too, so I doubt it will be very convincing for those that don’t agree. You are totally right about it being an IP matter, so the theatre setting is good. But Stardock isn’t selling the right to play GalCiv *one* time. They are selling the right to play as much as you like.
So the correct comparison with the theatre would be a lifetime subscription allowing you to see the same movie as often as you want. That the theatre would make the subscription nominative is in no way shocking I think. But whether leaving the subscription nameless and allowing people to resale theirs would put them out of business or not is, I think, a matter still open for discussion.
I can see two or three things to consider there:
- First, if the theatre tell you the subscription is nominative before you buy, it’s not very fair to complain after buying it
- But allowing resales can generate an interesting goodwill, especially when one remember that the theatre is selling drinks and snacks too
- Finally, what would happen if the subscriptions were nominatives, but each subscriber decided to come to every projection, and bought nothing at that occasion? If the theatre could keep its business up in that situation, all and well. But if they couldn’t then how come exactly they did make such an offer? Yeah, that last one is very flawed as Stardock does not give its customers any right that would allow them to forbid further sales. But still interesting in the theatre case I think. Anyway, in Stardock case, it’s not totally dumb to ask what would be the problem for them when there do not seem to be a problem for other software companies. It might be DRM related, but it’s not obvious at first.

That said, the conclusion still stands. As long as reasonable steps to make you aware of the whole deal have been taken before you agree to the deal, deciding to complain afterwards when non one forced the deal on you, or complaining to a third party when someone else cheated you, like by not telling you they didn’t have the right to resale their copy is not exactly the most fair thing you can do.
Reply #200 Top
http://kemayo.livejournal.com/625961.html?view=1714473&style=mine#t1714473

Another example of where lack of clarity on this policy can bite your good name. Note: prospective buyers of the time will not likely hit Stardock.com. And yes, while I generally support Stardock's stance- this is a decent-sized screwup on Stardock's part.

Best suggestion: Make sure a warning about used copies is prominant on the box. Or at least on the CD itself. Something like "Used copies of xxxxx game are not supported by Stardock- purchase at your own risk. For a new copy, visit here."

Edit: Found out this was at a Gamestop, and was advertised as a new copy. So odds are this could be a problem with Gamestop doing what it normally does (selling used copies as new)- but my previous suggestion still stands as a good idea.