Creeps should spawn when player caps the first node

In case someone is not aware, the neutral node defenders currently spawn at 1 minute mark. Engineer takes 20 seconds to cap a node, so you'll be able to cap a node (or two) if you get your engineers to start capping within the first 40 seconds of a match. By using your first engineer to assist your base on producing a second engineer and by getting your timing right, it's possible in some maps (on some starting positions) to capture two nodes right at the beginning of a match.

I really dislike this. There's way too much silent knowledge, per map pre-learning, and microing involved rather than just the strategic decision of which node (rad or metal) to cap first. Additionally, as the maps are not exactly symmetric, it might be that in some maps only one of the players is able to cap two nodes, leaving the other player to a significant disadvantage. Even if the maps would be exactly symmetric, a microing mistake could pretty much decide the game within the first minute of a match between equally skilled players! I don't believe this is the kind of gameplay Ashes should thrive for.

Therefore, I believe that creeps for the other nodes directly attached to starting node should only spawn, but spawn instantly, when the player starts capping one of them. This would be get rid of all the issues with the current system and be an simple rule to explain to new players.

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mbknox2

I disagree, just tweak the maps to be mirrors

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I agree. What is really the worst aspect of this is that it is totally counter to what is probably the game's main design consideration: make the game about strategy and not micro. Games can be won and lost on how you move and cap with engineers in the first 60 seconds, and that runs totally counter to what the game is about.

I think giving players a "free" point is the way to go (although I wouldn't doubt that there this will cause some sort of complication that I haven't considered).

At the very least, give engineers some sort of peashooter weapon or the ability to reclaim live enemies. There are few things more frustrating than trying to cap the first or second point in a ranked game, being seconds away, and having an enemy spawn.

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I think that engineer addition would be the best solution. But what the game is about doesn't matter. Ranked play always changes design philisophy because players are always looking to make the next big play or get something down to an art form. Example is the engineer 2 spot open. It's something that seperates good from great

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Quoting Freyja_Bjorn,

reply 3

But what the game is about doesn't matter

Freyja, what are you smoking?

If what the game was about didn't matter, maybe we should have quick-time events to determine how you get the opening points. That way, we could see who was the best (at clicking buttons really fast) and that would separate the good from the best.

And then you go on to talk about design philosophy of ranked play; design philosophy and "what the game is about" are pretty much synonymous, so you pretty much said, "what it is about doesn't matter....what ranked play is about does matter". One of the devs cited it a while back, but like 94% of the people who play this game don't even touch ranked, so building the game exclusively around them makes nothing even resembling sense.

This reminds me of an argument I had with a friend who thinks he is like a pro Overwatch player. If you are trying to be a pro that's fine, but getting all puffed up about it in a game like this is kinda silly. If you want to be a pro rts player there are many more suitable games out there....

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And that really means that 94% of the players are actively attempting to change and alter meta gameplay.

all I'm saying is regardless of design ideas of what the game is perceived to be. Ranked play always changes initial designs in ways developers dont anticipate.

I am a pro rts player, or have been. So in that respect I don't mind speaking with a fair bit of competitive play experience and seeing how games get changed and patches when players start to find broken methods of winning.

but this is hardly the point. Ranked play and custom play is always different in games. clicking as fast as you can? We won't worry too much about apm but all games really go back to how quick you are. Except turn based ones.

In every rts Ive played whatever opening you use determines the game one way or the other. Everyone starts the same so if you give them a point. It just speeds the game up. Do whatever you want really or rant about it. Whoever is bad now will be bad then. Changing it so creeps spawn will just mean we are slower to cap. That doesn't even the playing field from someone who is exceptional to someone who isn't. There will always be a gap in knowledge or understanding. Learning how to two cap isn't hard at all.. Like barely difficult so it's not something I think needs changing. Also depending on the map size.. Or type it's not necessary and you can push your opponent faster as he's not get the initial metal income you have. It all depends.

and I smoke prostuff for pros, by pros for pros. Not for you..

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Quoting Freyja_Bjorn,

reply 5

We won't worry too much about apm but all games really go back to how quick you are.

I agree with this point, and you can't have an RTS that completely does away with the advantages that come with performing certain actions quickly.....

None the less, the 60 second mark for creeps to spawn is something that rewards esoteric map and production knowledge. Memorizing how to get to points on a given map is hardly an interesting skill and requires no choice on the players' part, just rote memorization.

So yah, time is always a factor, but in every other situation it is a soft factor; why have a hard cutoff 60 seconds into the game (if you miss a point you have to wait till your factory is up and at least one unit is out, delaying your income for at least something like 60 seconds)?

This is especially dubious when you consider that, based on the score the game displays (and personally running to get a beer) many games start while a player is afk. I have missed the first 20 or 30 seconds a few times based on my love of beer/alcoholism and it's super weird to me that the game seems to punish this in the way that it does.

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I guess again this is because you can choose to get 2 points.. or not.

Why not you ask. Welllll!

On some maps you may only want to get one with the second engi as the first is making an assembly, then filling your first 2 metal points building a second assebly and cap your radioactive on the move.

I think you're underestimating the amount of knowledge you need to learn in any game to be competitive.

If you dumb it down too much you won't have many players.

I agree maps need to be perfect mirrors to be fair, but taking away the 60 second grace removes different types of play.

I now often only open with 1 spot with double factory as it allows me to win the first engagements or expand faster as I have units on the floor faster than my opponent.

Well I get that you might be miffed when you miss something for drinking, but isn't that the same in any rts, maybe not so hard of a slap in the face but if you played any decent rusher on most rts games and you gave him a 20-30second grace you'd be auto losing.

I guess from a competitive standpoint less drinking? I drink on the load and then when I'm comfortably in the 2-3 mins mark.

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