Brothers In Arms = Brothers With No Class » Forum Post by Agent of Kharma

The title of the thread and the majority of text afterwards was aimed at my clan only because you said they wanted him to boot some newbs as you say so they could play instead.

Yeah, that's right.

You barely mentioned pawelo and did not at all since then.

He was an asshole, but it was your clan members who instigated the whole thing. Do you not see that? Plus, who am I supposed to "report" Pawelo to, his mother? Theoretically, your clan is supposed to have "ethics," because I read them in a manifesto.

Your concern should be the behavior of your clam members, not Pawelo. Now, whether you choose to actually give a damn about it or not, I really could care less. I reported their behavior, that was my job. You obviously not only defended their behavior, you agreed with it. So that's your business. But quit with the "you didn't beat up on Pawelo enough" spiel.

you talk crap about the clan in general and them specifically. I state that berating others is not a good thing to do and that provided proof then I would deal with it. You do not provide proof and instead insist on insulting my own ethics.

LOL. I love the terms you use, i.e. "badmouth" and "talk crap." So when did telling the truth about offensive, rude, and unsportsman-like behavior become "badmouthing" and "talking crap?" Let me let you in on a little something. YOUR MEMBERS are the ones who "badmouth" and "shit talk" and "talk crap," calling innocent people newbs, laughing and joking about it, asking people to be booted so that they can cut in line and play, as if they are God's Gifts to Sins or something. When this behavior is witnessed, observed, and reported, it is not "badmouthing" or "talking crap," it's called "telling the truth." I'm sorry that the truth hurts.

No, you haven't seen me "badmouth" and "talk crap," and I can promise you that you don't want to see it.

You tell me to provide "proof," but 1) you think I sit at my game with a video camera focused on the screen so as to catch everything that is said in the game channel? 2) why the hell does proof matter anyway, when you have stated that you have no problem with their alleged actions anyway?

Finally, you say I insulted your ethics? I did nothing of the sort. YOU INSULTED YOUR OWN ETHICS, MY "FRIEND."

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I asked for proof because lack of proof could be just you talking out your ass. You insinuated that you played this game and were not actually kicked out so a replay would automatically be saved and chat in game recorded. To my knowledge there is no log kept of chat log outside of devs in the game lobby and chat channels. Outside of that, you have only your word. I assume that you have no proof or you would have provided it already. You don't gripe about pawelo because you say there is no one to gripe to yet you griped to everyone on this forum. A clan makes a big target so it is easier to blame a clan rather than 1 unaffiliated person. If you had a problem about the clan and wanted to handle it with clan leadership then all you had to do was ask who it was and post on our forums or talk to me directly.

I defend the fact that some would rather play with friends than others because I can understand that. I would rather play with people I am familiar with rather than strangers. That is why I am in a clan to begin with. It is unfortunate that people get kicked but its the way things go. As I said, if someone has been in a game I hosted for more than 5 minutes then I don't kick them personally and try to be as polite as one can be kicking another out of a game even on the rare occasions that I do. If there was a problem with a particular member then I would try to find out what happened and deal with it accordingly depending on the circumstances and whether it was chronic bad behavior. We have been known to kick for misbehavior in the past. The other clans do not despite members that act a LOT worse. I tried to deal with the issue in a reasonable manner but that has not worked out. Believe what you want of me or my clan. I am not here to impress you.

[_]-Greyfox

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I'll chime in late here. I've seen people from every clan do this, and plenty of people who aren't associated with a clan. It is always the same. The game is full, someone pops in through the chat function and says something stupid like "room?", completely ignoring the fact there is obviously no room because all the spots are full. Thankfully I've also seen more and more people fed up with it and say no, or only be willing to boot an obvious smurf or someone who went AFK. That I will agree with. One time I was waiting for a game to start and Caius was going on and on about how the host needed to boot someone to make room for his friend and I actually convinced the host to boot him to open up a slot.

But that being said I still occasionally see someone getting booted for a mediocre record to make room for a more skilled player. Sometimes it will bother me enough to leave a game because of it (before pug of course). It has even happened to me before and for a long while I would only play in smaller games which don't attract the prima donna's.

Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand, so take my advice for what it is worth. Greyfox, either you've got the balls to be a "leader" or you don't. But coming on here arguing grey area just makes you look like a two faced retard. I use quotation marks because this is an online game after all.

Karma what name do you play under?

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Lets cut to the chase here, Agent thinks that the clan members acting badly and without reason, Greyfox has no problem with what they did because that is the choice he can make.

No amount of postulating by either party will either change position or the fact that this stuff goes on. people have to make up their own mind and it would be best for all concerned to let this die its death as it just reinforces the positon to people that online is not the place to go.

If clans want to play together then great. set up games that are clearly marked as clan first and everyone knows where they stand. its not hard. just stop the bitching at each other as it just shows both of you to be looking like a pair of school kids which is likely not the case.

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ahhh [_]-Knewgui the person I love the most to hate on ICO. I was on last nighta nd he joined my game and I am glad he left it in 5 seconds. I didn't wanna play with im. he's probably one fo teh guys for whom I have the least respect for on ICO because of his behavior. I was happy of not seeing him at all for a very long time. Sadly he seems to be back, hope it's temporary.

They are so good guys in BIA that I just adore to play with and make me wanna join. But they also picked up a few pricks like [_]-Knewgui that turn me away completely. I dunno teh otehr guy mention yet.

And GreyFox I liek playing with you man but you should allow people to join on more thne just skill but attitude as well.

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I do keep a watch on attitude. We have kicked out a few because of their attitudes(namely Caius, Sire/King of Kings, and Ascension/Black Sword Command). If someone repeatedly acts like a jackass then eventually it catches up with them.

[_]-Greyfox

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Very sad behaviour if this event is true. To wrap this up quickly the BIA leader should have addressed the alleged members involved in this event and make an apology to the public about their poor behaviour (he could even toss in the caveat of "if true, our group is sorry for their behaviour..." - at least this would have been the mature thing to do imho,ymmv). Being selfish is not an excuse for this, or other equally disdainful, alleged behavioiur since this online gameplay is fraternal. If everyone starts being selfish soon we will all be hosting our own games and not caring to join other games for fear of being booted.

It is easy to be a jerk. It takes a mature adult to be polite!

good luck and goodnight.

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If provided proof, then they would have been dealt with according to their behavior be it a warning or removal from the clan. No proof has been provided so it is his word alone. No corroboration has been offered. There has only been debate on the ethics of kicking others to let friends/familiar people into a game rather than have an unknown. He just wanted to gripe and accomplished that purpose. My clanmates only allegedly called someone else a noob which happens on a regular basis with at least half of the online population whether they are serious or not. They did not perform the kicking. The worst he said they did was call someone a noob and laugh about it. Granted it was not the most mature behavior if true but hardly a newsworthy event. If you want bad clan behavior without any repurcussions then you should look to DT. They have arguably some of the rudest clan members in the sins community(namely siddy and gini) but some are good guys too. The difference is my members use their tag more and DT smurfs 95 percent of the time. It is easy to hide under a false identity to be a jerk. I hold my members accountable if they are jackasses. Other clans do not. I will not however take the word of some random guy without any proof or corroboration as reason to censure my members.

[_]-Greyfox

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Hell Fox, quit talking about proof, because 1) you don't care about the behavior anyway, so if proof was provided it would be of no use to you, and 2) I doubt they would deny the incident anyway (provided they even remember it - I'm sure they commit infractions on a nightly basis).

If you want proof, just ask them and see what they say, or ask this Pawelo if you know him. I bet there are good odds they won't deny it. But if you don't want proof, then quit asking for it.

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

If the game Assholes of a Solar Empire were released, would the three factions be [_]-Brothers in Arms, _|~Defiant Unity, and [DT] Dream Team?

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you just called yourself an arsehole dirty

and not all people in DU, DT and bia are arses

in fact there is probably only 2 or so jerks in DU, quite a few in bia and a whole bunch in DT.

i guess i may be one too though

_|~Uber

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We all can be asses at one point or another. Agent seems to be focusing on clans mostly though for his list. I don't have a problem with DU in general. Most of them are fine in my experience with at least 1 notable exception. DT smurfs so much that they might as well not even be a clan. Their bad members practically never wear their tag since they are too busy smurfing(i think i have seen siddy with a tag maybe a handful of times in a year and a half).

[_]-Greyfox

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Quoting Greyfox2,

reply 33

If provided proof, then they would have been dealt with according to their behavior be it a warning or removal from the clan. No proof has been provided so it is his word alone. No corroboration has been offered. There has only been debate on the ethics of kicking others to let friends/familiar people into a game rather than have an unknown. He just wanted to gripe and accomplished that purpose. My clanmates only allegedly called someone else a noob which happens on a regular basis with at least half of the online population whether they are serious or not. They did not perform the kicking. The worst he said they did was call someone a noob and laugh about it. Granted it was not the most mature behavior if true but hardly a newsworthy event. If you want bad clan behavior without any repurcussions then you should look to DT. They have arguably some of the rudest clan members in the sins community(namely siddy and gini) but some are good guys too. The difference is my members use their tag more and DT smurfs 95 percent of the time. It is easy to hide under a false identity to be a jerk. I hold my members accountable if they are jackasses. Other clans do not. I will not however take the word of some random guy without any proof or corroboration as reason to censure my members.

[_]-Greyfox

sigh...

One could have taken the high(mature) route. What would you have lost by addressing this issue of alleged poor behaviour with a an apology (with a caveat of "if true")? If anything you would probably GAIN karma and people would like favorably on your organization as being quite honorable and adult.

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Quoting Greyfox2,

reply 37

DT smurfs so much that they might as well not even be a clan. Their bad members practically never wear their tag since they are too busy smurfing(i think i have seen siddy with a tag maybe a handful of times in a year and a half).

It's possible that the [DT] guys receive an inordinate amount of attention when they wear the tag, and not necessarily in a good way, hence the smurfing.

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In my opinion the mature route for me personally is to find out what happened and judge what needs to be done as clan leader. It is not to apologize just because agent is annoyed or agitated before I even know if there is a reason to. This is a game clan. I am not a business owner trying to apologize for my employees to retain business whether the customer is wrong or right. I am not their parents to clean up the messes they make. If they want to apologize for what wrongs they have done(if they have done any wrong) then it is their place to do it and not mine. I am not responsible for their actions but only my own. It is my job to judge whether their behavior warrants removal from the clan. From what is presented here by agent it is not. Their behavior was not the most mature but not terribly offensive even if every word is true. I have not talked to howler or knewgui to even find out as I have been busy in RL and had not been able to log onto ICO much for the past week.

It would seem that at least one of the developers agrees with me that it is within the host's domain to kick for another if they want. Like kryo says on agent's quickly defunct thread in multiplayer forum, it may not be kind but it is the host's discretion. Pawelo was perfectly within his rights to kick whomever for whomever else he wanted. My advice is to stop whining about it and host your own games.

[_]-Greyfox

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So what are you still doing on this thread? You have no business here if you say your job is to decide whether to boot them out of your clan. you say no, so now you leave? why r u still here if this is apparently beneath ur notice?

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I have responded to statements made after the fact just as I respond to your questions. I would say I have as much if not a lot more business in this thread than you seeing as how you did not name yourself as being involved in earlier posts and I am the leader of the clan mentioned in the post title. You have no dog in this fight. As far as clan business, that is done. He has no proof or corroboration. I will have the incident in memory in case it becomes a chronic problem but the infraction was fairly minor in my opinion even if it is true.

[_]-Greyfox

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grey i know that this happens all the time with people from bia and all clans, and sometimes even non clanners. as much as it sucks that this happens it is not uncommon, i dont think Agent would make this all up just to get attention on the forums. you cant just say it didnt happen because he has no proof. I have no proof at my house that there is a city in the US called Washington DC, but does that mean that it doesnt exist???

while this is common i think all clan members(including myself) should stop trying to get noobs kicked from games just so they can play.

Claners can make new games just as easily as noobs.

_|~Uber

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Quoting top vasari,

reply 43

I have no proof at my house that there is a city in the US called Washington DC, but does that mean that it doesnt exist???

_|~Uber

It doesn't : it is an illusion to make you feel safe in a dream world called America whereas Vasari are making sexual experiments on you as you sleep.

Yeah, i know, the truth hurts.

(just a joke in that terribly serious topic) .

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want me to be blunt? Why should I play with people who dont give me a challenge? I hate noob bashing, I prefer to fight and lose to someone much better then me.

On another note, I have been kicked out of games plenty of times before i became skilled and joined bia, my words for you is to SUCK IT UP U PUSSY! Until you become better and well known, expect to be kicked out of skilled games.

I been kicked out of games many times before, I didnt moan and cry like you, put me on ur list i dont care, grow up people, get better at the game, kick ass, and most importantly kick ass and GET NOTICED!

And ill be honest with you, I hated BIA and DT, they treated me like shit before, but when I got better, they noticed me and I joined them.

People think that they can rip the piss out of me, and when i give it them back, they cant take it and get annoyed. dont blame bia, blame the communtiy and the game.

GET BETTER - PLAY BETTER - GET NOTICED - BECOME SKILLED - AND BECOME THE ASS HOLE WHO KICKS PEOPLE OUT OF GAMES FOR NOT BEING SKILLED, its not the question of how you turn to be the guy to kick noobs outta games, but when?

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greyfox - yeah i wasn't involved in what agent posted here, but that doesn't mean I have no right to comment. I agree with everything agent has said and this stuff is one of the reasons why I've only gone online twice. and if you respond to something and tell that person to shut up because they have no proof or that it was only a "minor infraction"....then y respond at all? ur only making urself appear as an asshole to the rest of the community (not accusing u of being an asshole, just saying what u make urself appear as.)

and sunnyhawk ur bia? oh look, its a trend...

all right, i guess im out of this thread. id give up agent and everyone else, theres no changing these guys. just never play with them i guess is the answer.

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you guys need to understand this simple equation:

Play More + Get Noticed = Staying in Skilled Games

Quoting C.I.,

reply 46

greyfox - yeah i wasn't involved in what agent posted here, but that doesn't mean I have no right to comment. I agree with everything agent has said and this stuff is one of the reasons why I've only gone online twice. and if you respond to something and tell that person to shut up because they have no proof or that it was only a "minor infraction"....then y respond at all? ur only making urself appear as an asshole to the rest of the community (not accusing u of being an asshole, just saying what u make urself appear as.)

and sunnyhawk ur bia? oh look, its a trend...

all right, i guess im out of this thread. id give up agent and everyone else, theres no changing these guys. just never play with them i guess is the answer.

C.I. read my simple equation hillbilly

why should i play with ppl who are too easy for me?

noobs complain when we kill them, and they moan when we kick them out of games to stop them from moaning when they are losing in games to us.

I sometimes train new ppl when i get the chance, but C.I, if you want to moan, then you can, i reli dont give a crap what you think. Lifes too short to moan, either walk away or grab it by the balls.

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and if we are all assholes, why do 99% want to join the clans who kick them out of games?

hypocrites.

I bet you everone will be saying ' i dont wanna join', like fuck you dont.

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i dont think Agent would make this all up just to get attention on the forums.

Thanks top vasari. Yes, the absolute truth is, I had never seen, met, or played with knewgui, howler, or pawelo before. So it isn't as if I just woke up and said to myself "hmmm, I think I'll log onto the forums and pick 3 names at random to accuse of an incident." Maybe if I'd ever seen or played with them before, it might be plausible that I'd make such a thing up just to "get back at them" about something, but this just wasn't the case.

I had an explosion of private messages after this post. I had a lot more posts to make on my "assholes of a solar empire" thread before it got closed. Interestingly, some of the stuff I got was from "skilled" people who are well known, who wanted me to place assholes on my list, and provided proof to back up their claims. That should tell you a little something. Too bad that post got shut down.

Pawelo is still a total asshole online, and he isn't the only one. I witness it every night. I bring it up just to show that this is chronic behavior that some people have, and I don't know why decent people would tolerate it in the community. I think the answer is, there aren't many decent people (left) in the commnity.

you guys need to understand this simple equation:

Play More + Get Noticed = Staying in Skilled Games

Excuse me, but you need to understand this simple equation: THIS WAS NOT A SKILLED GAME. IT DID NOT HAVE THE WORD "SKILLED" IN IT. If it had had the word "skilled" in it, I would have avoided the game like the plague (even though I have a little skill), and I think others would have avoided it too, and this incident wouldn't have happened. Comprehende'?

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Let me tell you something else, SunnyHawk. I got booted from a game tonight because the people said I was a smurf. I said "waitaminute... why am I being booted?" They said "you're a smurf!" I said "I'm not a smurf, I'll tell you all the names I play under right now" and as I was rattling them off, they booted me. I jumped back in and said "Waitaminute! Don't boot me, I'll leave on my own, okay? I just want to know why I'm being booted?" They kept saying I was a smurf so I said "Okay okay, I'm outta here!" And I left.

Now, was I a little miffed? Yeah. Did I think they were rude and were being dickish? Yeah, they could have been a lot nicer. However, I never had an intention to post any of them on my "assholes" list, even though that's what they were. Why? Because they didn't let me sit there waiting for 30 minutes before deciding to boot me to make room for some clan asshole with a popular name. They booted me promptly within 30 seconds of entering the room, and they didn't call me names or badger or insult me, although they were pretty dickish.

Do you see the difference here? Yeah, they could have been nicer, and they should have been nicer, but bottom line was, they didn't personally insult me, and they didn't boot me for someone else, and they didn't let me sit there for 30 minutes before booting me. SO IT WASN'T AN ISSUE.

Let me say something else. NO, THIS WASN'T A SO-CALLED "SKILLED" GAME. IF IT WAS, I WOULDN'T HAVE TRIED TO JOIN IT. I was just looking for a game to play (as always), and it was the only one available (as always).

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