Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

Lula posts:

Of your use of self importance, I agree with you here...for you seem to regard self-importance the same as the sin of pride?

If yes, what else beside pride is self importance?

NIGHTSHADES POSTS:
Every one of those "shall nots" listed in the ten commandments, in addition to avarice, greed, pride, and anything else that puts ones needs and wants first before the needs and wants of another or of Gods law and will.

It is for instance self importance that causes one to steal. The person doing the stealing reasons that because "I wanted, or I needed" I can take what I want or need. They aren't thinking about the wants and needs of the person that they are stealing from, they are only thinking about themselves. They are putting their own wants or need first and the wants and needs of the one they are stealing from last, if they consider them at all.

It is the same as the driver that cuts another off on the road. They are thinking only of themselves and the fact that THEY are in a hurry or are late, etc. They aren't thinking about the fact that their actions might cause an accident, and perhaps injure or kill another. They are putting their reasons for doing so above the safety of others, because what they are hurrying to is more important because it concerns them. In other words they become more than the other drivers on the road.

For instance the man that would go out and kill another because his child was molested by them, yet he would not do the same thing for another persons child that had also been molested. Why? Because his child is an extention of him. And therefore the child that belongs to him is important than the child that does not.

These are only a few examples of self importance, there are probably a million more, but I think that the idea is clear.

Yes, I understand self-importance in this same way.

But what I shall like to get back to is what you said about self-importance and Christ.

Jesus gave over his self importance to god by giving over his own free will and self concern for his own life.

In the first examples from Eve with the self-importance sin of pride and on down, I note these are all sins that people commit in one degree or another. Christ was sinless and so that's why I cannot put Christ and self-importance and self-concern together.

The short of it is Self-importance is true of sinners, but never of Christ.

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As I recall the seed of Abraham according to the bible was multiplied thousand fold, and God made a covenant between God and Abraham and his seed until the end of time. When God made this covenant God did not make the stipulation that it would last only until Jesus came. As I said before God doesn't make promises and then break them.

If you haven't please read Galatians 3:16-27? "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his seed. He said not: and to his seeds as of many. but as of one: and to thy seed which is Christ."

It goes on and is important to follow...but for now since it's getting late...The fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham is seen in Christ, who is Abraham's seed, not in the law of Moses.

Read Genesis 12:7,13:15, 17:7; 22:18, 24:7 and you'll see it says "to thy seed".

When you're talking seed are you thinking DNA as in a biological basis? If so, you're thinking with the revolutionary Jews who rejected Christ...they can't claim Abraham as their father. I think it's St.John chapters 5 to 8 that cover this. It should make for a rip-roaring discussion.

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I've heard many christians talk about the blood of the lamb, and having to be marked with it.

The lamb that was offered for sacrifice by the hebrews before the time Jesus was symbolic and was to remind the hebrews of the need for the sacrifice of the self (it is self that keeps us seperate from god). The hebrews however, like all of us, forgot it's true meaning. They no longer sacrificed to remember the need for overcoming self, but in thinking that all one had to do was sacrifice an animal without blemish.

Here you are using "self" again.....whereas I see it as about sin.

Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy are replete about the Mosaic Laws regulating Divine worship. God prescribed to Moses what sacrifices were to be offered, together with the manner of offering them and the times they were to be offered. Some of the sacrifices were bloody and some were unbloody. The bloody was goats, sheep, and oxen without blemish.

The unbloody was flour, fruits, oil and wine. When the thing offered was wholly consumed on the altar, it was called a holocaust or whole burnt offereing and was the highest act of adoration. When only the fat was burned it was called either a sacrifice for thanksgiving or a sacrifice of expiation for sins committed....also called a sin-offering or simply a sin.

For the bloody sacrifice, he who offered the sacrifice laid his hand on the head of the victim, while the priest killed it and poured the blood on the altar or sprinkled the people with it. So, here, the most important part of the sacrifice was the pouring of the blood for by the shedding of the blood the life of the victim was offered.

(YOu can see how this is similiar to Christ shedding His blood for the life of the world.)

The holocaust was every morning and evening a 1-year old lamb was offered as a perpetual sacrifice.

Now, the important part is that in conjunction with these sacrifices there was an obligatory confession of sins in which the offender confessed his sin to the priest.

On the day of expiation, kept 5 days before the Feast of tabernacles, after the High Priest returns from the Holy of Holies, he took another goat and laid his hands on its head, confessed the sins of the whole people, and then drove the goat away in the wilderness laden with the people's sins...here they lost in the infinitude of God's mercy.

The significance of the Old testament sacrifices is that they are types of the most holy and world redeeming Christ. The bloody sacrifices were typical of His bloody sacrifice on the Cross, the unbloody sacrifice were typical of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and the meat offering of Holy Communion. All the sacrifices of the Old law found fulfillment in the sacrifices of our Lord becasue ---1st...He was the real Sacrifice and 2nd...it had infinite efficacy to blot out all sin and win grace for all men.

It was a real sacrifice for Christ was truly man and took the sins of His brethren upon Him. It had infinite efficacybecasue Christ is also true God and so able to make infinite satisfaction to the divine justice. The Sacrifice of Christ was a true holocaust because He shed all of His blood and was consumed by the fire of infinite love in honor of His heavenly Father. It was a sin-offering in the highest sense of the word becasue it reconciled heaven to earth and brought peace to the world. Since our Lord offered Himself as a Sacrifice, the typical sacrifices of the OLd Law have lost all efficacy and all legitimate existence.

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Once Christ died and the Temple was rent from top to bottom, there was no more Hebraic Judaism from which he could apostate from!!! He couldn't be an apostate of Talmudic or Phariseetic Judaism becasue that wouldn't be developed until 135AD.

Jesus death had absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. The Temple was not "rent" (a Christian myth), and Judaism continues to this day. Paul was a Pharisee and the Temple was not destroyed by Rome until after Paul's death. He was most certainly an apostate.

Be well.

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No. The sacrifices of Abraham and Moses came before the sacrifice of Jesus, as did the first sacrifice of Abel and Cain. You can't change a time line or history simply because you or Paul or anyone else wishes to do so. Jesus showed the hebrew nation the true meaning behind the sacrifices that were made prior to his coming. The animal sacrifice was not given in rememberance of Jesus. It was done in rememberance of God and his covenant with them, and what they needed to do in order to be one with God. One can not do something in rememberance of one that hasn't existed yet and sacrifice was given in rememberance. Jesus became the living sacrifice, the living human example of what sacrifice is really meant to be and to accomplish. He was the fulfillment of that promise of self sacrifice.

You'd be better off looking to God for the answers than to Paul, or any of the apostles. They were only sent out into the world to testify as witnesses to the life of Jesus and what he did, his explanation of it, and the result of the leaving behind of self, which is a new life. Not to reinterpret God's word or change the history of the Hebrew nation. God needs no one to reinterpret his words. Nor does Jesus since his words did not contradict Gods. Jesus said that he came not to destroy, or change the law, but to uphold it. Paul decided he'd change it (if you can't destroy the messengers destroy the message, or at least rearrange it if you can't erase it.) And you only have Pauls word for it when he says he spoke with God. There were no witnesses to the event. Jesus had witnesses, the apostles, and his disciples and Paul of Tarsus was not one of them. The only thing that is trustworthy in the new testament is the apostles verbatim quotes of what Jesus said and the events that took place. Not the letters to the churches, or their interpretations of his words or Gods. Jesus said that God dwells within every man. If you take his word on this to be truth, and I do, than it is simply a matter of asking God and listening for the answer. And if for some reason you can't wait for the answer, or don't believe that he will speak to you and instead go to the bible for it, go to the gospels or the old testament. Not to the others. They are man's interpretations and words, not the words of either God or Jesus.

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Thinking that seed means DNA? May I remind you that Jesus was of the seed of Abraham since he was of the house of David. It was most important that his geneology was established. So much so that the apostles spoke of it. Israel would not have listened otherwise had it not been.

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In the first examples from Eve with the self-importance sin of pride and on down, I note these are all sins that people commit in one degree or another. Christ was sinless and so that's why I cannot put Christ and self-importance and self-concern together.

The short of it is Self-importance is true of sinners, but never of Christ.

You are correct in saying that the Christ was never sinless, but Jesus was. Jesus did not become the Christ until after his death, and resurrection.

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This whole conversation of self and self-importance is interesting to me as a Buddhist. Self has no independent existence. The identity we call an "I" is an aggregate of many conditions. When those conditions are no longer present, the "I" disintegrates.

Our belief that we exist independent of life's conditions is a product of deluded thought. Our practice of prayer/meditation takes us out of ourselves, allows us to see the deep interconnected nature of the universe, and frees us from this delusion.

We, God, Earth, Universe: all are already one. We are always one. Our stuff, is the stuff of everything. It changes form with the flow of life and death and life and death to the point that we see there really is no life or death, just change. The whole process is what we call God.

Some of us want to have a "personal" relationship with this Vast Process, we anthropomorphize it, we speak to it, we adore it. Others see it as Vast Process, what Buddhists call "Vast Emptiness" and turn our attention to making life better.

However we understand this Vast Process doesn't change it. It is what it is.

Be well.

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Some of us want to have a "personal" relationship with this Vast Process, we anthropomorphize it, we speak to it, we adore it. Others see it as Vast Process, what Buddhists call "Vast Emptiness" and turn our attention to making life better.

So, this is the voice of prophecy. Prophets were meditators who took themselves into stillness, opened themselves to the universe and listened. Their prophecy is their attempt to put into words their experience. Of course these words will be a natural reflection of their culture and times. It is up to us, contemporary readers, to understand their message as a finger pointing to something larger than ourselves.

Be well.

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Jesus death had absolutely nothing to do with Judaism.

Good Day, So Daiho,

My, are you comfortable in such a small box?

Let some history and reality in. Why deny the truth?

Not just Judaism, but everything across the entire world, changed with the coming of Christ, His death and Resurrection.

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The Temple was not "rent" (a Christian myth), and Judaism continues to this day.

Again, check history...it supports Sacred Scripture. At the moment of Christ's death there was a darkening of the sun all over the earth from the 6th to the 9th hour, (something like an eclipse maybe) and then, the veil of the Temple was split in the middle.

Yes, Judaism continues to this day, but not the Judaism of Abraham, Moses, etc...that's become the religion of St.Peter, St.Paul and all the other Apostles and their successors who followed Christ and all His teachings.

Without a Temple, burnt offerings, no priesthood, and no Sanhedrin or ruling body, the Judaism that continues today by in large is the one that arose at Jabne from the school of Jochanan ben Zakkai and Hillel. All they had was a book and out of the book a new Judaism was created. The role of the Rabbi was to comment on the book, the commentary was known as the Midrash or collectivily as the Talmud which is the basis of the new Jewish religion.

We know that that time forward that Jewish life would be between the School of Hillel and the cause of political messianism after the model of Eleasar the Zealot and the School of Shammai.

So, Judaism today seems to flow from 2 bodies of law.

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Not just Judaism, but everything across the entire world, changed with the coming of Christ, His death and Resurrection.

Nothing has really changed, other than there was a new and exclusive religion formed from it. with an exclusive membership that gives them permission once more to think and believe that somehow he/she, they are better or different, more unique or more loved and cherished than another, and therefore more special. And in that thinking/belief we have have allowed just another way for self importance to maintain it's control over us. That is not CHANGE, it is simply more of the same old same old. The Hebrew nation has had the belief of being unique/better/special than anyone else for a much longer time. Christianity simply took the same mantle for themselves.

Sohaido is correct in what he is saying.

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the veil of the Temple was split in the middle.

Who saw this event?

The temple of THE I AM, is not a place, it exists within all men, it can not be destroyed. It can be ignored but not destroyed except by THE I AM. And once THE I AM destroys it there is no longer a physical life or an ever lasting spirit. Judaism still exists whether there is an actual building standing or not, or whether sacrifice is still practiced or not. Christians should keep in mind that their religion has changed greatly over time as well. Does that mean that christianity no longer exists?

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At the moment of Christ's death there was a darkening of the sun all over the earth from the 6th to the 9th hour, (something like an eclipse maybe)

All over the earth? Really? And who was witness to that event? Who may I ask was present all over the world at the same time to see it? What was observed in Israel does not necessarily mean that it was observed everywhere since the observers were present only in that area. There are eclipses all the time and certain areas of the world are darkened, but not all are.

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Yes, Judaism continues to this day, but not the Judaism of Abraham, Moses, etc...that's become the religion of St.Peter, St.Paul and all the other Apostles and their successors who followed Christ and all His teachings

Says who? Paul of Tarsus? And what or who may I ask gave him that right other than himself? It's become the religion of St. Peter? He was a hebrew, he remained a Hebrew even though he was an apostle. And what may I ask do the christians sacrifice? Not themselves, and not animals or grain etc. either. For one to simply say that it's become their religion does not make it so. The hebrews, and that includes Abraham and Moses, never worshipped their prophets, they maintained a strict worship of God alone. Jesus was a prophet, a man who through example showed to the hebrew nation, the true meaning of sacrifice and fulfilled the promise of God to the hebrew nation and in doing so he became more. Only the christians worship something other than god.

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Jesus forbid his apostles to go into the Gentiles to preach the massage that the kingdom of heaven was at hand.

Matthew chapter 10 5-8

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, having instructed them thus: "Do not go in the direction of the Gentiles, nor enter the towns of Samaritans; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach the message "The kingome of heaven is at hand!".

He didn't forbid them because the Gentiles were not worthy, but because Jesus understood that if they did they could contaminate them with the hebrew idea of "exclusivity". Something that the hebrew nation adhered to and practiced. They were not allowed to eat certain foods, intermarry with those other than those of their own faith, they couldn't associate with those of other faiths, or those that were considered as sinners because they performed a certain kind of work such as tax collecting, etc. He knew that when they witnessed his life and actions and the results they would not think that they were the exclusive property of the Jewish nation. That is why he said that he was to be a "witness to the gentiles". People do talk about events and the people contained in those events all the time, and Jesus knew that the word of him would spread all on it's own, but without the "exclusivity" of the hebrew nation. The Gentiles did not maintain a seperateness as did the hebrew nation. They were not of the mind that they were the "only chosen nation of god". They intermarried and accepted those of other faiths even if they didn't practice those faiths. In genesis when god created everything and man and woman in his own image he forbid them nothing.

Genesis chapter 2 verses 27 - 30

"And God created man to his own image; to the image of God he created him. Male and female he created them.

And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.

And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat:

And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life that they may have to feed upon. And it was so done"

It wasn't until the Lord God recreated all things of the earth that there was something forbidden. And the Lord God is not God, but an extension of God just as all things are an extension of God. All that we can think of and all that we can not. And it was recreated, the second creation is not simply a retelling of the story of the first creation but in a slightly different way. They are indeed two seperate individual events.

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Good Day, So Daiho, My, are you comfortable in such a small box? Let some history and reality in. Why deny the truth? Not just Judaism, but everything across the entire world, changed with the coming of Christ, His death and Resurrection.

Good Morning Lula,

If I am in a box the box is the universe and all its myriad incarnations. I do not deny Jesus. I do not deny your faith's point of view. I do not deny Allah or Mohammed or Lao Tzu. All are aspects of the whole and the whole itself.

As to Christ's messiahship, I encourage you to believe he was so. For me, he did not fulfill the prophecy. The world has not changed, still there is war, famine, greed.

The messianic message, in my view, is a message that speaks to an inner transformation: a letting go of self, self interest, and dualism. Its about awakening.

Once one is "awake" then everything changes. We realize our true nature as completely interdependent beings having no separate self. We realize our thoughts, concepts, ideas, are just thoughts, concepts, and ideas. They are empty of any independent existence. Hell isn't hell, its just what we call it; heaven isn't heaven, its just what we call it. Even the cup I sip my tea from is not a cup, its just what we call a cup. Infinity is us.

Be well.

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Hi SO DAIHO,

You wrote:

Jesus death had absolutely nothing to do with Judaism.

If I am in a box the box is the universe and all its myriad incarnations. I do not deny Jesus. I do not deny your faith's point of view. I do not deny Allah or Mohammed or Lao Tzu. All are aspects of the whole and the whole itself.

Why go all over the place? Let's just stay with the point at hand....what you actually deny.

Read your own words...you deny that Christ's death had anything to do with Judaism, both Hebraic and Rabbinic, Talmudic Judaism...when in fact it did. As a result of Christ's death, the former one was reconstituted into Christianity and the latter came into existence as a result.

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Read your own words...you deny that Christ's death had anything to do with Judaism, both Hebraic and Rabbinic, Talmudic Judaism...when in fact it did. As a result of Christ's death, the former one was reconstituted into Christianity and the latter came into existence as a result.

Come on, Lula, it wasn't Jesus' death, it was the destruction of the Temple that forced the working out of rabbinic Judaism. Still, Judaism, at its core, remained the same, pure monotheism.

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As to Christ's messiahship, I encourage you to believe he was so. For me, he did not fulfill the prophecy. The world has not changed, still there is war, famine, greed.

And I encourage you to keep searching..and if in some way Christ reveals Himself to you, harden not your heart.

Yes, indeed, the world has changed...it's groaning towards its end. We know this has to be as a result of the Fall.

As for us people, we're better off becasue of our Savior. We too were destined to die the death, but now we have the promise and hope of eternal life, depending on how we live our lives. God is love. God created the world through love, we are to live here through love.

Once one is "awake" then everything changes. We realize our true nature as completely interdependent beings having no separate self. We realize our thoughts, concepts, ideas, are just thoughts, concepts, and ideas. They are empty of any independent existence. Hell isn't hell, its just what we call it; heaven isn't heaven, its just what we call it. Even the cup I sip my tea from is not a cup, its just what we call a cup. Infinity is us.

I'm sorry, SoDaiho, none of this makes sense.

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I'm sorry, SoDaiho, none of this makes sense.

No worries, Lula. One cannot use reason to get it.

Be well.

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Thanks SoDaiho,

You know me....at least I think you do by now....

I like to understand things through reason and faith.

I'll throw common sense and logic in the pie too!

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And I encourage you to keep searching..and if in some way Christ reveals Himself to you, harden not your heart.

One does not need Christ to know the truth. If you as you so often say "love christ" then why do you not do as he himself did and said, and accept the truth that god lives within all men? That the power to find god also lives within and with God all things are possible, even the finding of God. No man needs another to find God. There was no one to show Abraham, or Moses, there was no Jesus, no apostles, no one but God.

Sodaiho speaks the truth. Reason can not find it. Reason belongs to the self, and the self belongs here and can go no further than here.

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Yes, indeed, the world has changed...it's groaning towards its end. We know this has to be as a result of the Fall.

How do you know that it's "groaning towards it's end"? All things exist at the same time including the past, present, and the future.

And what may I ask is the Fall? THE I AM will not abandon that which THE I AM has created. All men belong to THE I AM, and THE I AM will have that which belongs to it. All things including man will return to THE I AM, none will be left behind.

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Lula posts:

Not just Judaism, but everything across the entire world, changed with the coming of Christ, His death and Resurrection.

Nightshades posts: #288

Nothing has really changed, other than there was a new and exclusive religion formed from it. with an exclusive membership that gives them permission once more to think and believe that somehow he/she, they are better or different, more unique or more loved and cherished than another, and therefore more special. And in that thinking/belief we have have allowed just another way for self importance to maintain it's control over us. That is not CHANGE, it is simply more of the same old same old. The Hebrew nation has had the belief of being unique/better/special than anyone else for a much longer time. Christianity simply took the same mantle for themselves.

Hello Nightshades,

First, the piquant and provocative nature of discussing Judaism and Christianity is a given. Not conception of history, but history itself, accords that supernatural Jewish religion from the days of Abraham came to an end when the earthly mission of the Messias had been fulfilled. So when I claim that Hebraic Judaism was displaced by Christianity, I can assure you that it's never been about one-up-man-ship as you seem to be suggesting, rather it's always a matter of getting to the truth.

Once again, the world has only had one religion of God's making and that was Hebraic Judaism and it contained Christianity. In Hebraic Judaism, the only religion in the days before Christ, there was the Promise, Christ, and the family of David from which Christ was to come and did come. Judaism contained a priesthood of Aaron and Mosaic sacrifices, in pre Christian times, that the OLd Testament said would be displaced, as it has been, by a priesthood without genealogy, and a "clean oblation" in place of the bloody oblations of Old. Therefore, Catholics hold their religion, with its Christ-instituted priesthood and sacrifice (the Holy Mass), to be Judaism full-blossomed.

Not just Judaism, but everything across the entire world, changed with the coming of Christ, His death and Resurrection.

Nothing has really changed, other than there was a new and exclusive religion formed from it.

In saying this, you fall into the category of the people today who take these changes for granted.

Christ changed the world by establishing Christianity. The Christian belongs to 3 distinct societies, domestic, civil and religious, each one answering to to particular needs of man and all instituted by Almighty God.

Now go back and think about the condition of the lives of men, women and children who lived from the time of Adam until the establishment of Christianity. Ah, pretty bad.
In general, women and children had no rights whatsoever and treated as chattel. Slavery was common as was polygamy and divorce. The wealthy did no manual labor and if you were poor you might as well be dead. There was no such thing as property rights or social justice, charitable institutions, hospitals, orphanages, and so forth.

Christ redeemed mankind not only spiritually, but He is our Temperol Benefactor as well. Christianity is truly unique in that it brought about new ideas of human rights, defended private property, elevated workmen and gave dignity to manual work, etc.

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Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

staging a messiahship