On some level I think you knew. hahahaha

Faith/religion whatever you want to call it, tends to be life changing, all encompassing. That is why people are so passionate about it. Can you think of one other form of anything that illicits such a strong emotion, or produces such dramatic results in life or releases such potential, without completely destroying the individual? (Speaking generally here, we all know some faiths require you to do exactly that, and not metaphysically either.)

It doesn't surprise me that people are passionate and get so upset over discussions/debate/attacks/innuendo/you name it. As humans we want to protect that which is precious to us. And what is the point of believing in something, for something, if you do not count is as precious?

There is no error in what I've written.

Jesus died for the sins of the world. Not for your sins, and not even for the sins of the jewish nation. I've explained many times what sins of the world are, so there's no sense in going over it again.

Jesus gave over his self importance to god by giving over his own free will and self concern for his own life. The evidence of this is his words in the garden before his arrest. Jesus did not want to die, and asked god to take the cup from him, but ended up giving over his free will to god, when he spoke the words, thy will and not mine own. Sacrifice of the self is the lamb, the same lamb that that Abel sacrificed to god. The lamb is "self", self importance, self will, self concern. This is the sacrifice that god finds pleasing and acceptable. Cain offered a sacrifice of the world, not acceptable. One does not offer to god as sacrifice that which is already gods.

I've heard many christians talk about the blood of the lamb, and having to be marked with it. The statement is true, but the blood of the lamb is not Jesus's blood, nor his sacrifice. It must be ones own sacrifice. To claim his or anyones sacrifice as ones own is "covetousness". Such as in the commandment "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors house: neither shalt thou desire his wife nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor ANYTHING that is his." And it is strictly forbidden. One can not claim the sacrifice of one for ones own, not even Jesus's.

The lamb that was offered for sacrifice by the hebrews before the time Jesus was symbolic and was to remind the hebrews of the need for the sacrifice of the self (it is self that keeps us seperate from god). The hebrews however, like all of us, forgot it's true meaning. They no longer sacrificed to remember the need for overcoming self, but in thinking that all one had to do was sacrifice an animal without blemish. (The sacrifice of the lamb became the same as Cain's sacrifice of the world. Also an animal without blemish was also symbolic as well, symbolic of the self without the blemish self importance and self concern) This was why Jesus was so angered at the sellers in the temple. He came to remind the hebrew nation of the true meaning of the sacrifice of the lamb, and to show that it was not the end of life, although the physical life as we know it will end, but instead the beginning of a new life. This is why Jesus is called the "lamb", and why he said that he came to GATHER THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL. They were lost because they had forgotten the true meaning of the sacrifice. He came as a witness to the Gentiles, so that they also could see, but he didn't come to gather them.

Jesus did overcome "original sin" which was the sin of self importance in the "garden of eden",(Adam and Eve chose "self will and importance" over the will of god.), but his overcoming of original sin was not an overcoming for all. (It was for an example for reminding the hebrew nation what the true meaning of sacrifice was, and that it could be done, what one needed to do to accomplish it,and what would beome of those that could overcome self.) Quite obviously he didn't wash away our original sin, since we all still have self concern, and self importance.

Yes Jesus did bear the sins of man, he was a man. He still had self concern, as, once more, evidenced by his statements in the garden. He had self concern for his own life (he did not wish to die and he acknowledged that fact to god and asked that god take the cup from him if it were possible). In the end however he gave over his own self will and the self concern for his own life to gods will. (Thy will and not mine own) When he gave over to gods will and not his own he did become sinless, because sin is having self concern and self importance.

Well it was according to John the Baptist who basically was like one who walked off the pages of OT history. He said:

"Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." John 1:29

In the OT, the future Messiah was likened to a lamb.

"he was led like a lamb to the slaughter and as a sheep before her shearers in silence" Isaiah 53

IN the OT Jesus was referred to as the lamb of God. To say his sacrifice was not good in this aspect is to say he came and died for nothing. The OT sacrificial system starting right in the garden with Adam and Eve pointed to the future when God would sacrifice his own son in place of the lamb; a once and for all sacrifice. First you had sin, then sacrifice right there in the garden.

If you go back to Abraham and study the story about his willing to sacrifice his own son, you'd see many parallels with the future sacrifice of God's only son. Isaac was a picture of Christ. Abraham was a picture of God the father. You have the wood of the cross and Mount Moriah all figured into this picture. God provided a sacrifice in place of Isaac then (with the ram) and later (with Christ). It would not be Abraham's only son, it would be God's only son who would die for the sin of the world.



well this is in direct contradiciton of scripture both old and new. So do I take your word for it or do I take scripture's which has stood the test of time? Where are you getting your info?

"He was pierced for our transgression."

He was crushed for our iniquities."

"For the transgression of my people he was stricken."

"For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" Isa 53

His sacrifice was a personal one. It was made from love. He loved mankind so much he was wlling to die for them, if they would only believe.

So in order for this to "take" we must accept HIS sacrifice, NOT our own meager one.

To say our sacrifice is what is needed for our own salvation comes right from the pt of hell. Right off in the garden that sneaky devil convinced Eve to recognize she could do quite well on her own and turn her back on God.

Remember Peter being rebuked by Christ? Christ looked right at Peter and said "get behind me Satan" when Peter attempted to deter God's will for his own. Just like Christ recongnized the voice of Satan in Peter so can those who hear and obey the voice of Christ hear Satan in the words of others.

Nightshades,

For those who have ears to hear, Christ is still after the lost sheep of Irael..."Come follow Me" is a universal call.

In St.John 10 Christ describes Himself as a Good Shepherd and explains:

Verses 11-12, 16-21, 24-26, 30

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

"And I have other sheep that are not of this fold: I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, becasue I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from My Father."

There was again division among the Jews becasue of these words. Many of them said, "He has a demon, and he is mad; why listen to Him? Others said, "These are not the sayings of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?

So the Jews gather round Him and said to Him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, " I told you and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me; but you do not believe, becasue you do not belong to my sheep. I and the Father are one."

So, there you have it. In the end, there will be one flock, will you be part of it?

#257 KFC, wonderful exegesis.





#257 KFC, wonderful exegesis.


Also, we might think of it this way: as with Adam's sin, death started in the Garden and with Christ's Passion beginning with His agony in the Garden of Gethesame, life was restored and the gates of Heaven were once again opened.

No worries, nothing to forgive, I am a Jew and "Pharisees" is not a bad word in my religion.  I do, indeed, look at Jesus as rebellious and heretical.

True within your religion, absolutely false within mine.  As I said, they are two separate religions. As to the Gentilesm, true again.  You are only bound to the Noahide law.

Paul could say this till the cows came home.  He had no authority in Judaism since he became an apostate. Its more like Paul took his own sample and planted it in a Gentile pot.  No longer Judaism. Then grafted on all the Gentiles.  They were not Jews, but Christians, and have no claim to Jewish history, customs, or anything else. Of course, they are always welcome to become Jewish.  But then they would have to swear off Jesus.

See ya.

 

 

IN the OT Jesus was referred to as the lamb of God. To say his sacrifice was not good in this aspect is to say he came and died for nothing.

I never said that his sacrifice was for nothing, you are putting your words in my mouth. He died to become closer to god, I wouldn't call that nothing. And I did not say that he wasn't the "lamb of God". I said that he was called the lamb because he represented in the flesh, or human form, a reminder to the Hebrew nation as to the real reason behind the sacrifice, which was a reminder for them to put self aside and follow GOD. His willingness to die and the resurrection itself, was to show them that if they did they would find a new life closer to god. That also is not nothing, that is UNSELFISH LOVE.

He also came to gather the lost sheep of Israel. Many of you say that they didn't follow him. They weren't to worship him as they would worship God. JESUS IS NOT THE I AM. "THOU SHALT HAVE NO GOD BEFORE ME" They were to follow his example and put self aside so that they could be closer to god, and take up a new life. You talk as though all the hebrew nation rejected him and his teachings. NOT SO! Try, if you can, to keep in mind that the apostles, the disciples, and all most all of the crowds that he ministered to WERE HEBREWS. Jesus himself said he came to find the lost sheep of ISRAEL, AND TO BE A WITNESS TO THE GENTILES. Why are you rewriting his words?

I've already explained about the difference between Cain and Abel's sacrifice, and what the two represented, and why one was favored and the other not. And yes sacrifice is all throughout the Old Testament. Over and over again God has been telling the Hebrew nation, you must put self importance and self concern aside, because I am your god, and because it is a barrier between us.

You are of the mistaken notion that I am saying that his life had nothing to give you. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that you are not automatically "saved" because he died, other than he is for you also an example of how to put self aside in order to become closer to god and enter a new life. That is why he stated that he was to be A WITNESS FOR THE GENTILES. He did not die for your sins, nor the sins of the hebrew nation. Dying for the transgressions of the world simply means that he renounced sin, (sin is of the world, you can only sin when you are physically alive not when you are dead) and all sin comes from self and self importance. And when we do that we do physically die and enter into a new life and by the way a new body. That doesn't mean that when you die of old age, or disease, or by accident you will enter into that new life. You won't. Not until self importance is overcome. You must do as he did and die for your own transgressions of the world willingly, if you want to find that new life. And that doesn't mean that you must be crucified or some such either.

The passage, "And kneeling down, He prayed, saying" Father, if thou will, remove this chalice from Me! But yet not My will, but Thine be done." is probably one of the greatest lessons we can ever have on prayer.

If Jesus wanted to die he would not have asked God to remove the chalice from him. No human ever wants to die. We spend thousands just to keep ourselves alive. We worry that we have enough earthly goods to keep ourselves alive. We worry that someone will take our lives from us. Doctors enter their profession in "order to save lives". We are very obsessed with life and maintaining it.

The words you quoted are slightly different, but the meaning is still the same.

Yes!!!!! "But yet not My will, but thine be done". God your will is more important to me than my own and my own life which is important to me. When your life is important to you that is self importance.

To say our sacrifice is what is needed for our own salvation comes right from the pt of hell. Right off in the garden that sneaky devil convinced Eve to recognize she could do quite well on her own and turn her back on God

No it doesn't come right from the pit of hell. And the sneaky devil in the garden of eden tempted Eve with self importance. The serpent told her that she could be like god, and know good and evil, and because she had self importance she disobeyed the word of God.

Why should god hold another responsible for your sins? Do you hold another responsible for someone elses actions and lock them up in prison instead to pay the penalty for breaking the law? What if your neighbor committed the crime of murder and the authorities came arrested you for it and executed you when they knew that indeed it was another that had committed the offense. Would that also be correct and good? No, it wouldn't. Do you think that God is not correct and good?

Of your use of self importance, I agree with you here...for you seem to regard self-importance the same as the sin of pride?


If yes, what else beside pride is self importance?

No longer Judaism is right!

That is not true. It is not a question of which religion is right or wrong, it is a question of which individual follows the word of God or not that is right or wrong. Religion is not a living breathing being. It is simply a set of rules that one follows in order to find and become one with THE I AM. Christians should keep in mind that the basis of their own faith exists in Judaism. The commandments that you follow were given to the Hebrew nation by god, and he made his covenant with them. God does not make promises and then break them. Also Jesus was jewish, never a christian, and being the Christ didn't make him not Jewish. He followed the laws of his religion. He kept the passover and the sabbath, and he went to temple just like every other Hebrew.

Sorry about the way I phrased this...

If you'll note above, I am actually agreeing with SO Daiho..he wrote: No longer Judaism and I agreed, but wrote it rather poorly.