About the custom planets...

Zyxpsilon

Join Date 02/2006

+80

About the custom planets...

I'm presently trying to complete the X-Worlds' set of planets for every some 40+ races and i do have a few more comments/questions to share before i step further more into the entire design shema(s).

1) Is there any way to integrate any of the five "extremes" (Barren, Toxic, etc) INTO a race's system?

2) Although i found it somehow odd, it boggles me to be restricted with the Rings "formatting" and appearances. The 32x32 files seem to take the first row of pixels only. Any chances this limit could be altered? There's huge potential for variety if the entire grid can spread as is in orbits; example - true small asteroids, colored "dots", waves, etc.

3) The Homestar definition (names and code-reference) gets flawed at first since the customrace.xml line doesn't get carried out from (or even, within) the customplanets tag. Slightly annoying, but this needs to be modified, i guess.

4) Observation; If a custom system has the maximum of five pre-sets it COULD happen that the last is discarded when certain conditions are met - Smaller maps, being one. Would it be possible to enforce Majors' planets creation priority against Minors or remaining "empties"?

5) The Raw format for terrain completely eludes me. I was able to use a workaround solution by copy/paste processing mines onto a faketemp file, but the sizing routine of my drawing-prog always ADDS header bytes to the valid (73728kb) 384x192 greyscale/8b... thus screwing up the readouts. What would be your recommended software (and other important settings) to properly create such files from scratch?

6) Is it absolutely essential to keep the previous defaults INTO the new customplanets.xml and list our stuff via append only? I understand that mix&match races could require the pre-defined sets, but would the huge numbers of specific planets added by my mod break a certain undefined memory limit? As a result, making the available planets that remains (in the twilight of procedures) useless!

7) 24b/png textures ONLY!! Why? I can show you some beautiful graphics for the XW-Aliens planets which would certainly be good enough at lower resolutions... and take a huge chunk of zipped bytes right off the ever-growing package size & making room for other things. Not that important, but if it could be possible, i'd find some reliable use for the new/alternate format.

I guess, i'll stop this list for now.
Please, i need some answers before i proceed with the remaining work on X-Worlds.

- Zyxpsilon.

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Won't make a difference

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well i was going to post a pic !! can`t get IMAGESHACK to come up

but i got Toxic and Mars Barren mercury but the other 2 planets come up wrong !!

testing in DA BTW

get the pic

it`s like the game stop reading the file after Mercury !!!

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Won't make a difference

Just does not work does it !!!

if you use PlanetType on the first four planets it does not read all planet info !!!

if you use it on the last planet it read the info

it seem to stop reading info after it hits Planet type

maybe you found a BUG ???

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Hold it, i think i figured it out - almost.

The whole idea behind "extremes" is that a random value is applied to any given map AT creation time. Once the maximum quantity is recorded by the function (probably as fixed integers, btw), the code starts distributing the pool on random targets, somehow. When it encounters a custom system, it possibly skips the current procedure calls to concentrate on "empties" until there's simply nothing left to allocate. As a result, if your race happens to be the last to be accounted for, and the extremes total has already been reached, the feature "stops" the process since the max-ratio slot is filled.

Maybe, this explanation is wrong though. So, any SD coders would care to chime in on this issue to illuminate us all on these strange events and/or principles?

- Zyxpsilon.

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Hey, guess what... ONE more thing.

Is there a way to "control" the clouds overlay?

An Option to delete their use directly from the XML custom systems?
Must they absolutely be a 256x128x32b "grey-scale/alphablended" or would a different type (even with colors!) be considered valid by the code?

I realized some of my planets are (somehow) pretty nice as is and i wouldn't want to mess around too much with the perceived graphics with unwanted atmospheric interference!!

Although, right now, i can't SEE any of them - i will eventually, when i get to buy a DX9 compatible VidCard, maybe in March.

Really, i'm serious - not everything in the Universe has similar features to Earth.

- Zyxpsilon.

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mmm i tried to change the color of the clouds and it did not work they still came out white

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Logic used higher res clouds in his HRG mod, but i'm pretty sure you'll want to stick to a 2:1 ratio. no idea about different colors though, and i don't think there's any XML to mess with them directly. that would be really cool though, to enable clouds of different colors.

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Logic may know better but i think white is it !!!

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Guess i'm gonna have to go through some trial&error/basic steps to "optimize" a couple of cloud files... but, since it would be more reasonable to alter any for direct single access and tie them with a specific planet - i doubt the task would be worth it unless the xml CAN be edited accordingly.

I recon the engine picks those files at random it seems and spreads the lucky winners on planets. Having made an extra custom, doesn't guarantee its use on Planet X or Y which defeats the purpose of even adding it to some folder (Mod or not).

I was thinking more in the terms of... X-Com has a GeoScape/earth sphere model (as the main interface) which continually draws UFOs as tiny RED(+) symbols moving around, Pink squares for bases and green boxes for landing sites. So to be fair, i wanted to simulate the experience using a hovering fake clouds file... but only for Cydonia or T'leth. Small feature, but an accurate gizmo.

I'll see what i really can do without invading the entire galaxy with thousands of annoying reddy-pluses!

I also certainly agree that variable colors for clouds would be great. I'd make a big icy giant *slightly textured whites on surface*, where ghostlike blacky storms would haunt the spinning globes. Hell would even receive its very own Flaming torches.
With colors, one can produce some terrific effects. Plain alphablend whites everywhere simply doesn't cut it beyond a certain limit.

- Zyxpsilon.

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@Zyxpsilon
I think, the tilt values for "child" objects of planets, define the pathing/location relative to its parent, ie you could place a ring "shifted" around it's x/y-axis. I'm still trying to exactly reproduce this ingame behaviour in my mapeditor. There is probably a custom math function behind it, since it is possible to set a "slingering" path for moons, at least it looks like it ingame. As Kryo said, it's quite strange...

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Interesting hypothesis, (@-, too!)Korx.

If we could control tilts (indirectly) or even some paths geometry... the possibilities would be enormously terrific for variety and context. I'd even custom-patch the code by myself just to get this sort-of-feature working.
I'd love to see a single smally snap of this theory in action if you can, please!
Until then, great observation nevertheless.

- Zyxpsilon.

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Bump!

Now, that we can benefit from a genuine SD Map_Editor asset, i think i may have figured out a few things about how a planet is defined for mapping reasons and, with some deduction, which of these "values in specific call-lines" may represent similar conditions in the customplanets.xml file itself.

Yup, the infamous Rings, baby. Their geometry, the UV gimmicks, the whole concept behind a truly solid scaling of the WANTED rings around a planet.

Mind you, this is more about showing the ThunderBirds planets HOW they should.
So, take a look at this wonderful excerpt, taken at random;

_________________________________________
(Planet Name="Planet [15,10].[234,156]")
(CustomName)0(/CustomName)
(X)234(/X)
(Y)156(/Y)
(Quality)20(/Quality)
(Type)2(/Type)
(Size)35.0000(/Size)
(RotationSpeed)0.1400(/RotationSpeed)
(Influence)0(/Influence)
(Star)Upsilon Andromedae(/Star)
(FlipTerrainHorz)0(/FlipTerrainHorz)
(FlipTerrainVert)0(/FlipTerrainVert)
(TerrainTileOffset)0(/TerrainTileOffset)
(Ring)
(SatelliteSize)5.0000(/SatelliteSize)
(Orbit)57.0000(/Orbit)
(OrbitSpeed)0.5000(/OrbitSpeed)
(Tilt1)0.0000(/Tilt1)
(Tilt2)0.0000(/Tilt2)
(/Ring)
(/Planet)
_____________________________________________

Wow, this tells me a LOT about a number of issues.

-- TotA can randomize the surfaces images, flip 'hem, slap an offset and off we go; an nifty illusion on planets diversity. Smart, memory saved, ingenious!

And, now for a previous version found in a regular "customplanets.xml";

______________________
(Planet Name="Virgil")
(DisplayName)Virgil(/DisplayName)
(Class)22(/Class)
(Texture)gfx/planets/TB2.png(/Texture)
(RAWTerrain)TB.raw(/RAWTerrain)
(TerrainPalette)JunglePlanets1(/TerrainPalette)
(Rings)gfx/planets/r_TB2.png(/Rings)
(Orbit)1.75(/Orbit)
(InnerRadius)0(/InnerRadius)
(OuterRadius)16(/OuterRadius)
(PercentOfStarSize)0.55(/PercentOfStarSize)
(/Planet)
_________________________

Duh, hold it right there boy.

InnerRadius IS or ISN't the same thing as Tilt1?
Orbit(s)? Okay -- which one is THE one?
Speeds?

I think i may be onto something here -- also (right along side with MrKorx, btw).

So kryo or Carielf... care to volunteer any comments on this strange but essential discovery?
Or hopefully, stand up with the correct explanation or two?

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Darn stupid less-than-greater-than symbols as they are formatted, really messed up the above. Anyway, you certainly both understood what i meant.

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Oh... well... BUMPING this again.

But, not to waste valuable Forum space bytes - let me ask or comment about a almost different issue while i'm into this thread.

I want to re-create (or redesign) the 160+ XW-planets straight for TotA and it looks like i will certainly need a raw file for each.

- We have lost control over the distribution of tiles on surfaces since the previous 'planetdescription_terrainschema_etc' files, components, routine functions are now integrated into the code itself. That's fine. It works smoothly while grabbing less resources and does exactly what it's supposed to.

- The earlier system was pretty swift on the random factor and allowed for a huge number of relatively different planets. With that many raws (+400MBs in the heightmaps folder alone, IIRC), it's obvious huge diversity could happen.

Now, you have made us a planets folder with a 'general' naming convention for the types, sizes and quality. Again, this is okay.

So my question(s) would sound something like this;

Example -- PlanetQualMed_1..2..3 (List Stops)

1) If i were to simply add a bunch of pending numbers to this category (or any others, btw) would the game take these new assets into account and loop the extra files as valid stuff for the usual randomization proc? And if so... is there a maximum byte count which would somehow stack an overload when TOO many alternatives must be scanned for by the init process?

2) I really would need some sort of reference as to which new "raw_grey_scale" gaps represent the terrains diversity. Ocean seems to be pulled off pure-black, etc. This, in fact is an important aspect since whatever gets drawn on new images MUST make sense (geologically wise, so to speak) and of course - not to have a silly chain of Mountains colored like desert dunes... undetectable or even, miscued by any routine automated allocations.
Thus, i'd somehow need the parsing algorithm (indirectly that is, not the source itself!) to identify what should be painted on new surfaces BEFOREHAND.

And, only then -- would i be able to safely create all new planets or convert previous ones.

I'll be happy to read whatever comments or solution you may offer, Kryo or anyone else at SD.

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Bump

Kryo... SD.. Logic !!....AnyOne ???

Nasty

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We'll see. Eventually, probably, somehow - if i'm lucky!

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

InnerRadius IS or ISN't the same thing as Tilt1?Orbit(s)? Okay -- which one is THE one?Speeds?

If they were the same thing, they'd be named the same thing.

Just because something is in the map format, doesn't mean it can also be in or has an analogue in the CustomPlanets file. It's a safe bet that nothing new would have been added to CustomPlanets if it wasn't needed, though it is possible. Cari would be the one to answer that, but it may have to wait until after the PM08 crunch is over.

1) If i were to simply add a bunch of pending numbers to this category (or any others, btw) would the game take these new assets into account and loop the extra files as valid stuff for the usual randomization proc? And if so... is there a maximum byte count which would somehow stack an overload when TOO many alternatives must be scanned for by the init process?

Just trying it out should answer that well enough

2) I really would need some sort of reference as to which new "raw_grey_scale" gaps represent the terrains diversity. Ocean seems to be pulled off pure-black, etc. This, in fact is an important aspect since whatever gets drawn on new images MUST make sense (geologically wise, so to speak) and of course - not to have a silly chain of Mountains colored like desert dunes... undetectable or even, miscued by any routine automated allocations.

Hard to say, and I'm not entirely sure that the old stuff was removed, rather it's just shared from DA/DL. The RAWs are indeed still used, though they're much smaller (don't know the exact dimensions offhand, Cari or Logic would know) and they're simply black and white. I don't think there's a lot of concern about the actual tile types the game picks (which was never perfect to begin with), just that it picks the continents to build on and not the oceans.

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size 384 X 192 8 bit gray scale

I don't think there's a lot of concern about the actual tile types the game picks (which was never perfect to begin with), just that it picks the continents to build on and not the oceans.

works for me !!!

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It never was any more clear than what i just witnessed above!!

Lazy me, i should just try (which IS the proper way to even claim being a true Modder!) instead of having everything spoon-fed by who knows why & when & where & what.

Duh... lemme think very hard here for a fraction of a second in my lazy(-sic) life about that next one again; continent=ground + ocean=water. oKay, check.
Grey-scale, 256 colors, check. (If memory serves well, i KNOW about this already)
Try it all out, check.
Patience & Intelligence, allllmmmmost check.

Thoroughly ordering my thoughts and concerns and reasonings and questions before listing a theory in a forum thread, check.
Sometimes, i feel so gawdawful weirdly stupid to even dare asking some stuff which is in fact, sooooooooo much easy to figure out by myself.
You've officially got my excuses, my grin, my apologies and whatever else may seem absolutely necessary.

Still, TerrainColorSchemes.xml & PlanetDescriptions.xml files are to be considered obsolete, unused, dead-wood with the new splendid way to create surfaces in Twilight, Right?

Never mind, double_check also.
Thanks.

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PM08=Political Machine 2008, check too.

But, but, but i AM a GC2_TA player-modder which would need to pressure SD staff into being at my exclusive service 32+hours/day round-the-clock so that i can get my monthly (regularly) dose of new Galactic options.

Otherwise, i'll sue a potatoe head with some of my own slick election (or is it predilection?!) tactics_lies_questions_theories only to realize today is not yesterday and that, baby, listen to this... tomorrow's knowledge is a mystery unless *I* TRY it out before i forget. C_H_E_C_K.

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...just that it picks the continents to build on and not the oceans.

RRRRRRIIINNG, this is the buzzer sound on the Gong Show.
Wrong!
You've got to play with the Thunderbirds in X-Worlds to discover that an island on a PQ17 like Scott can certainly build a factory dead smack middle of the Pacific ocean - indirectly since the 12 times wide line of tiles is as much horizontal as it can ever be.

Alright, that's enough.
Back to serious Modding work.
I'm busy - sorry again, Kryo.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

TerrainColorSchemes.xml & PlanetDescriptions.xml files are to be considered obsolete

The former is, but I do believe the latter is still used (for what little it's worth).

certainly build a factory dead smack middle of the Pacific ocean - indirectly since the 12 times wide line of tiles is as much horizontal as it can ever be.

If there aren't enough 'land' tiles according to the RAW to accomodate the PQ, the game just starts filling from the equator out. That's ancient DL behavior.

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Two facts *revealing a truth* are certainly better than one ill-bred dream.

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Where was i, oh yeah - a dream.

So SirNastyofTang (or anyone else, btw), you actually showed up real interest in knowing about this whole "concept" i was yapping my mouth with the multiple posts above while waiting for someone's attention or comments?

Kay... seriously, absolutely?

The image below gives a relatively sharper vision over what i've been working on since last December.

If this proves to be too complex to even *try*

coding, i'll simply return to my dirty hole overthere never to bother anyone with it, ever.

But, if you REALLY think there might be a chance in a million that this type of stuff could be pulled... keep on reading.

- Floaterus is habitable by all, Exomicron is Aquatic, Hole is Toxic and Cydonia... whatever you wish.

- A blue boxy for Aquatic stuff like Coasts & Reefs. A Purple one for Toxics, Volcanoes, etc.

- It would give a meaning to the Galactic Orbital Terraformer building.

- It would multiply the number of available tiles in the later stages (or even sooner!).

- It would provide a way to let the five Harsh planets add much more impact to their usual; you can, you can't, you're half way there, you will eventually earn some of the colonization results. Before and_or after, some situations or surface contexts allow you to.

- It would involve careful thoughts on the Queries representation and FINALLY, possibly cut the current **all prairies or else** gimmicky by force by letting us keep a Mountain, a Beach and a Volcano and slapping those with the green validating tags - only.

- It could, and i say this with some knife between my teeth, hand over an overwhelming power of control to the players while they evaluate potential for a 12x6 grid worth of tiles.

- THAT's what i would call *Custom* Planets.

So... whaddayasay, SD_Team. Up for another challenge?

Else, i'm just gonna go hide in the nearest abysmal depths and implode in tears for doing all of that for ziltch.

Back to modding - real actuality... rather than hopes and, dreams!

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I mean, these people are very busy with something much more important than my 'ideas'.

A whole lotta week & love to all - LedZep.

I can happily report that the XW_TechTree now has two new thingy to research on top of the above Harshland Conditioning & Coastal Integration slots; Oceanic Expansion into the Abyss & Anti-Gravity Compensation to tackle up HG vortex.
In all theory, the galaxy just got bigger at the planetary scale instead of sector'ing immensily 45 parsecs worth all around.

Seriously, i just gave them a tag (* Implementation Pending *) and suddenly realized, i do NOT work for StarDock anymore than those actually responsible for design decisions.

Sooooo? Any comments, slams, swings, kicks, a wacky slap across this whole pile of junk tiles as they FIT the surfaces or squeeze into the planet wide red-to-yellow-to-green permission granted to have room to expand?

Or somethin' ???

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