Altarian Rebillion AAR

Wyndstar

Join Date 06/2006

+12

Altarian Rebillion AAR

Read it for the story, read it for the strategy, or just ignore it?

Well, I have been very entertained by some of the other AARs that people have posted (HydroAC really stands out in my mind) and I have been debating doing one myself. I'm not sure how well I will do at weaving a story around the game that I play. Also, it is one thing for me to post pieces of my strategy here and there, another thing entirely for people to be able to track what I do step by step.

But, like most experienced players, I actually have quite a few play styles. And really, its not like it makes me a better person to keep my secrets to myself. The biggest worry is that Frogboy will take notice and decide to try and stop a new set of strategies (he did a good job of countering the first set of suicidal strategies I posted). But, I have faith that I can adjust. So, enjoy this little window into how I play.

First off, I need to decide what kind of game I'm going to play. I decide to set everything to Random, leave tech trading on, and disable everything but a military victory. The other three victory types are way too easy, and I don't want to accidentally win when there is more game left to play. This will be an official metaverse game. I turned mega events on, because who knows? I don't have that long to devote to this AAR, so truth be told if I get a huge or gigantic map I will probably Ctrl-N my way to a new scenario.

Now, it is time to choose a race. I have a different strategy with each one, which one do I want to use? Ultimately, I decide to take the Altarians because Super Organizer has been getting a bad rap on these boards, and it is very exploitable. If the situation is right. Hopefully I can use this Super Ability to win the game for me in whatever map I choose. I decide to keep a journal every time I take screenshots, so that I remember what I've been up to.

Now that I've chosen Altarians, I need to choose their bonuses. This usually takes me the most thought, because it is here that I decide how I want to win the game. I'll be playing on suicidal, so the AI will have significant bonuses to economy, research, manufacturing, diplomacy AND will get bonus race points to use. A tall order. I decide to overkill on research, putting all four points into research and taking the technologist party. Early on I like that sensor boost. With a +65% to my research ability, I will have a good chance of staying level or exceeding the AI in research. I plan on going for a tech win, that is beating the AI with a technology edge, although I will still get a military victory. I also put all of the points I can into economy for a +60%. It isn't as good as what the AI will get, but I will take it. I finish up with a point in luck (I'll need it) and a point in morale. In the end, my bonuses are:
Economics +60%
Morale +30%
Research +45% (+65% with technologist political party)
Luck +25%
Logistics +5% (ug)

Not a large spread of abilities, but the few bonuses I have are reasonably large. I select 9 random suicidal opponents and let the game begin....

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Master Wyndstar,

Thank you for an excellent AAR. I appreciate the insights of your thought process, tricks, tactics, and your thinking-outside-of-the-box strategies that makes for a top notch read. What I particularly enjoyed was how you were able to use unconventional strategies, and also how you demonstrated how various Super Abilities can be used to better effect. For those of us who are **ahem** more linear thinkers this was a real eye opener.

Very nicely written, too: clear, concise, conversational.

I’ll have to mull some questions, although others have broached some that came immediately to mind. In particular, I think I’m going to have to pay more attention to the mechanics of the game. Based on your example on focusing with research only vs mixed improvements I think I’ve missed something key. In this I need to be more tactical than strategic. With regard to flipping I'll have to think over why bother to flip from research to manufacturing at all if all you need to do is focus (partial flip to economic may be necessary, though).

I also have to say you are brave wrt your economy. I get nervous when my economy starts plunging since I’ve had games where I never pull out of the economic death spiral, and then land with a wet splat. For that reason I’ve never considered leasing since that feels good in the short term, but has generally ended poorly.

Hydro

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Hi!

For that reason I’ve never considered leasing since that feels good in the short term, but has generally ended poorly.

If you know you'll win in ~30 turns, why not taking lease for 100 turns? In my first suicidal game the end report said I lost 78,000BC on tributes and leases. Hehe, ~90% of that money was never paid, I finished the game at about turn 90.

BR, Iztok

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I got all of those treaties in the first 10-16 turns. /../ My average "package" to get a treaty was Advanced Computing, Planetary Improvements, Basic Miniturization, Impulse Drive, Sensors and Basic Logistics.

I've been able to secure research treaties from all races for just "xeno ethics" around July of the first year. Many of them paid me 200 bc or so on top of the treaty (depending on their diplomacy level) I wonder whether the bundling might have lowered the value of your tech. (As you wrote, AI pays less for a bundle, I guess it works the same way when you are asking for a research treaty instead of money) However, there are many factors that were different in my game. Although I played Altarians I used bonus ability points to boost my diplomacy. I also had researched many diplo tech. More important still I was playing the 1.6 beta, at maso difficulty and on a huge map.

Pity that the estimate on research time (on the tech completion bar) seems to become unreliable with research treaties. If I dont need several techs of the same branch I adjust the sliders to avoid overflow. In several cases I have failed to complete the tech with just some silver. I guess that is because the extra research from treaties was less then in previous turn. In order to be sure to get the tech you have to allow overflow. Waste of resoruces.

Another good way of getting tech is if you're planning on wiping out a civ then trade your economic & research treaties to them beforehand for some tech of theirs, because when they're dead you'll get them back anyway

I have avoided the strategy because of the reputation hit. (You get the rep hit if you declare war on a civ that to whom you traded your treaties.) Maybe I am scared for no reason. Can you shed light on how it actually works? Does the rep hit affect relations or also trading? If it affects trading does it affect all trading or only when you attempt to trade your treaties again? Does the rep hit diminsh over time? Thanks!

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MottiKhan

Join Date 04/2007

+152

Thanks for the great thread, Wyndstar! You've taught me quite a lot.

I tried incorporating some of your strategy into mine in a new game last night, but on a large map at an easier difficulty (crippling). I'm not near your level, but I'll be enough of a threat in time.

I'm pretty skittish when it comes to leasing. I've done it a few times, but those were delicate circumstances. A viable economy makes me more comfortable. Then again, I like longer games and am pretty new to GalCivII (last night was just my 4th game and only my second on the crippling level).

While the AI promptly handed me my @zz soon after the colony rush, I can see some real potential in your way of thinking. I'll just need to tweak the ideas in my head and work out the details. It makes for an entertaining game.

I like seeing creative thinking in progress. Thanks again.

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Thanks for the write-up, Wyndstar. It is good to see someone out there finding new ways to play the game rather than simply turning out scores like a galley slave. You've inspired me to try out some of your galaxy settings at the very least - I haven't tried playing in a cramped-up galaxy where you're stuck with just your starting planets before, and I hardly ever try to keep my morale at 100% early on.

I think I might try something similar, but as the Torians; and I will probably build at least a stock market or two. If, that is, I ever finish my current slugfest as the Korath. I only get to play sporadically these days. Ha ha, get it? Playing sporadically as the Korath? Oh, I kill me...

Spore. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every motherfrakker in the galaxy. Accept no substitutes.

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I have to admit I appreciate Wyndstar’s can-do spirit, willingness to experiment, ruthless determination, and insight. There’s nothing like an honest to goodness demonstration to blast hardened opinions to little tiny pieces.

That is why I like the AARs - I learn much more by reviewing an example than by uber-scores or quip-like tactical throwaway comments. The former gives no understanding of how (and suggests twisting the mechanics to up the score) and the latter lacks context.

I also appreciate all those who take the time to put together the great strategy and/or storyline AARs. As Wyndstar says, the AAR takes much longer than some games do, especially when time is taken to describe what is happening or continue a storyline. One reason I like GC2 is the epic nature of the game, which the AARs capture very nicely.

Hydro

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I have two questions concerning the giving-planet-flipping-back:
1) Doesn't it flip of the AI when you do that (alarming influence and such)?

2) Why do you remove the population before giving away the planet? Is it easier to flip an almost uninhabited planet or just to not give the AI additional tax payers?

1) yes, but sometimes I want that.

2) yes, the lower the population, the easier the flip

With regard to flipping I'll have to think over why bother to flip from research to manufacturing at all if all you need to do is focus

A couple of reasons. First, it is a waste to use all reasearch buildings after you finish the tech tree. Second, all manufacturing buildings is a lot cheaper. Third, sometimes you really do want to blitz a military. Not only does switching to manufacturing help you, but the lower cost vs. all research buildings makes it easier to pay upkeep on the ships. Those are the first that come to mind.

I also have to say you are brave wrt your economy.

Well, I was desperate. I had almost nothingt to work with, so I needed to do something. There is a lot of flexibility in this game. Normally I don't lease quite to that level. This is just part of the reason why I sometimes give the "must use Ctrl-N to win on suicidal" crowd a hard time. I'm not trying to be malicious to those people, but I really believe that if you are good enough you can win from almost any starting position, even on suicidal.

If you know you'll win in ~30 turns, why not taking lease for 100 turns?

My thoughts exactly.

I'll just need to tweak the ideas in my head and work out the details.

It takes practice. I really do recommend learning on all manufacturing buildings first, it helps with the colony rush, and the money hit is less than all research buildings. And maybe it isn't a strategy you will ever be comfortable with. No worries, there are many many roads to victory in this game.

Thanks for the kind words Hydro. I actually liked doing an example game, because it was a chance for me to illustrate some of the things I've been talking about on these boards for a while. I pretty much handed out a blueprint, at least on similar map settings, but I also provided a context where people can now see what I am seeing to know how I come to my conclusions.

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Wyndstar's strategies of all factories or all labs are sound within the GalGivII game mechanics but no where else. Why can't I fully fund my factories and labs, if I have the required income? Why may I use factory output for research or lab output to build planetary improvements or ships?

I hope for GalCivIII they replace the current 4 sliders (spending, military, social, and research) with 3 sliders (factory output, military/social factory output split, and research output). Planets would have focus buttons for locally focusing factory output between military and social but not research. It is unlikely such a change would appear in a future GalCivII expansion because of all the game rebalancing that would be required.

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I dunno. It gets rid of the spending slider and makes the whole thing make a bit more sense, and would ultimately lead to many of the same effects, but with the ability to REALLY ramp up production if your economy can handle it. I don't think it'd be that huge a change, game mechanics wise.

AI wise, though? That's a different story.

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I don't claim to have near the experience (or apparently the playing time available) that Wyndstar or Iszok, et al, do, and I don't play in the Metaverse. However, I HAVE always used the all research / no factories strategy (with considerably less sophistication) since I started playing DL in December, and carried it over to DA (when it went boxed, what, 2 months ago.

I almost always play with rare everything on gigantic maps (my way of cutting down the grind time, in lieu of smaller maps), and very slow research. At least on those settings, the all research approach works fine on gigantic. In fact, in DA, with rare settings, the all-research player may sometimes end up with more planets than any of the AI DURING the colonization expansion, because the research edge will let you grab almost every extreme environment within your range.

Also, the Iconians play pretty well on RARE maps, especially in DA, because their home system is SO fine. PQ14+1+1+1 and (usually) PQ3+5+5+5. And with rare systems / planets, being able to grab some extreme worlds early can REALLY matter.

drrider

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Also, the Iconians play pretty well on RARE maps, especially in DA, because their home system is SO fine. PQ14+1+1+1 and (usually) PQ3+5+5+5. And with rare systems / planets, being able to grab some extreme worlds early can REALLY matter.

Good to hear some love for the Iconians. You've now inspired me to try them. People have been saying that they're the worst, but it probably just depends upon the situation. I have had to abort two games recently because most of the planets were extreme, and the Iconians grabbed them and had a huge advantage. I tried to play one through, but the Iconians were just too strong to compete with. And I had started as Thalans and had developed my homeworld quickly, and I had two other dedicated research worlds. But it didn't matter, as I was so far behind in the number of planets I could colonize.

One of the most interesting things about DA is that you don't have control about what percentage of the planets will be extreme. It makes a huge difference, so long as you're not setting things to guarantee that there will be many standard inhabitable worlds. I always play all random, so that it often happens that up to 70% of the inhabitable planets are extreme.

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Ya'know, it just occurred to me this morning that one could think of the Iconians as being a race that sorta started with a PQ13 HW, a 2-planet system, and sorta a built-in 1-level PQ ability. (3-points.)

Of course, that viewpoint is only really fair when planets are rare or uncommon, because the PQ+ ability has additional leverage on game outcome when there are lots of planets that it pumps up. Interestingly, the PQ+ ability does not seem to me to be a great help to home system 2nds any more, because the small PQ planets now "grow up" so well anyway. It might actually hurt some planets in the 3-5PQ range, if it is applied before their terraformable squares are calculate - but I have not experimented with this.

Hmm - So right now the Iconian home system is a 14+1+1+1 & a 3+5+5+5 (usually)- fully developed 17 & 18. IF they were a notional race with a 13PQ HW, and 10 ability points, that spent 3 points on PQ+1, the planets might be (13+1)+1+1+1 and (3+1)+4+4+4 (optimum for a PQ4) - fully developed 17 and 16.

Now, I don't know if changing ones outlook like this aids in PLAYING the Iconians . And I still think they should be officially tweaked to have the full 10 ability points in sandbox mode, even if Brad wants them handicapped in the campaign and dedicated scenario to match the backstory. But they are not impossible in all setup situations.

Ya'know, an interesting fix for the Iconians would be to just GIVE them a permanent PQ+1 ability (even if you kept home system planets as is, without the bonus), and left them with only 7 assignable ability points. Hmmm. They certainly would not be in danger of mimicing some other existing race; and I never read about anyone choosing to play that way, so it would force a unique approach.

drrider

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They can do well... in very rare situations. Anywhere where the initial planet is a huge portion of your empire or extreme worlds of the kind they can colonize are widespread. Generally, though, their lack of racial abilities handicaps them by comparison... to really shine, they need a situation where their super ability actually gives them a boost early on. Without that early boost, the ability is completely wasted.

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And lets not forget, on some maps their ability doesn't help them at all.

PLUS one of their only abilities is +% to espionage. That is the only ability in the game that is actually a penalty, because it lowers your control. You don't get bonus espionage spending cheaper, it just makes it so that you can't spend less on espionage if you spend anything. If I have a +30% in espionage, moving the esp. slider one tick FORCES me to spend 1.3% of my economy, rather than 1% of my economy on espionage. The only place where this bonus would be a benefit is in those situations where you want to spend MORE than 25% of your total economy on espionage, because the bonus would then allow you to spend more. For instance, a +50% to espionage would "allow" you to spend 37% of your total income on espionage. This "top end" boost is useful... never.

So, they have a very hit and miss super ability... and if you turn SAs off they don't even get that. They only get 7 ability points, when many of the best abilities require 8 ability points. They have almost no bonuses, and one of the only bonuses they have is actually a penalty. Just look at their description on the "choose your opponents" screen. They are listed as + espionage and - poor research ability. Wow, there is a combination.

I assume Stardock thought it would be funny to make a race that is the ultimate rear end of the rest of the galaxy. They are so much worse than the next closest poor stock race it is comical. Ready for the kicker? They are also good alignment.

I mean really. Shouldn't THEY have died in the campaign?

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Wyndstar, I can imagine few situations where I'd want to control my espionage funding that precisely... if I'm spending that little on it, then why bother in the first place? It might not be a very helpful ability, but it's certainly not much of a handicap, either.

The Iconians adapt to fit every situation they come across... they're tenacious survivors. They should really be built to reflect this. Technologies and abilities that allow them to confront stronger powers without getting crushed are what they need. Perhaps a super ability that gives them more power the further they are behind? Or, better yet... a unique technology allowing them to exploit parts of the environment that other races can't (ie, mining PQ 0 planets, harnessing a sun for production ala a dyson sphere or a less ambitious equivalent, like a solar harvesting platform)... that seems to be a good way to make them more relevant.

As for their racials, the Iconians should be getting planet quality and research bonuses. Espionage is the Krynn's area of expertise (though their 'super' ability is ALSO really crappy, they make up for it with AI quality and racial abilities).

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Oh, I agree there is lots that could be done to make them better. And story wise, I mean they DID create the Yor. I would expect them to be a good research race. And a PQ bonus for them is a great idea.

Them having some espionage ability isn't that big a deal (btw, I often want to spend only 1% of my economy on spies, especially when my economy is in the 20k+ per turn area. I hate being the Krynn late game and decide I want a few spies, put one tick into espionage, and suddenly watch 2k per turn get diverted. Especially because you can only purchase one spy per turn, no matter how much you spend), the Drath also get one, and have always been espionage sorts, and of course the Krynn are the supposed kings of spying.

But the Krynn are at the opposite end of the scale from the Iconians. They get more ability points, and a LOT more natural abilities, and are a more powerful alignment, etc. etc. About the only thing the Krynn and Iconians really have in common is that they are both more powerful if you turn Super Abilities off, because then you take away the good super abilities from the other races.

Or even up their super ability so it included the advanced terraforming techs, so the few planet types they get at least they can use fully right off the bat.

Story wise, I don't understand why they are now +espionage/-poor research ability. From a game balance standpoint - they were made worse than awful.

On one hand, it is interesting, because they represent a unique challenge. On maps with lots of worlds you can kind of overcome their deficiancies because the strength of your empire has nothing to do with your bonuses, but rather from your mass of planets.

On the other hand, why does Stardock hate them so much? They weren't always the worst race in the game. Indeed, there was once a time when they could be competitive.

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Wyndstar, thanks for your AAR, please keep posting them. I would appreciate a new one, especially one that applies the only manufacturing strategy.

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This was a great read, thanks a bunch.

I think one of the best things about your race setup is that you can use the manufacturing setup in a pinch.

I am not ready for suicidal but I played this on crippling and had a very good time of it, though there were a few factors that made it difficult. I always play medium, loose clusters, common stars, common planets, common habitable, normal reasearch, everything else random.

First, I think random everything can make labs impossible with the wrong draw. I didn't notice if you chose the number of races or not. If you don't have sufficient major/minor races to whom to sell tech, you will go broke so fast it will be impossible to pull out of it. I luckily drew 9 major races, but no minors. This was tough at times because the majors run out of money faster. I suppose on a larger map it could work as you may get enough financial planets to make it viable, but at some stages (maybe I built too many labs) I was -860 bc per turn.

I think one thing that makes it easier is to deliberately research a few techs you don't care about that much but that the AI will value. Some of the extreme colonization techs (depending which ones are applicable to non-colonized planets on your map) sell to the AI for relatively big money.

For a large part of my game my research treaties were only drawing 10 points total, which was less than 5% of my total. I won't say they aren't worth it, if you get them early but wow, they can be useless.

Anyways, thanks a lot, I do think this is more powerful than manufacturing so long as you don't get attacked early and there is enough money spread throughout the foreigners that they can buy all your tech. Like I said though, this race can do either, or even balanced (yech).

By they way to everyone else, you can research to warpdrive so fast you won't be missing the speed bonus for long.

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And story wise, I mean [the Iconians] DID create the Yor.

Incorrect. The Yor where made by the Arnor to replace the Iconians but when the Dread Lords made them sentient the Yor nearly exterminated the Iconians!
"...as the Iconians advanced, an increasing number of the Arnor objected to the servitude of the Iconians. Of course, like many moral debates, there was a practical side: the Arnor had grown quite dependent on the service of the Iconians. But the Arnor came to a solution: they would replace their Iconian servants with artificial beings. And so came into existence the Yor, whose story is told elsewhere. In time, the great Precursor empire split in two and warred upon one another. The group of Arnorians who lost the war—for reasons that are unknown to us—were labelled as the Dread Lords. Before they and nearly all the other Arnor disappeared, a final act of malevolence was performed: the Yor were made truly sentient beings."
Galactic Civlizations II Alien Races, Part IV

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Ultimately, I suspect that the +30% to Espionage spending is a bug. I'm fairly certain that no one in Stardock would ever wish 'gee, I wish I could spend more than 25% of my economy on my spy network' instead of 'I wish the money I spend on my spy network was 30% more effective'.

As for the Iconians and their SA, I think the ability needs something of the same buff that Super Isolationist has with speed limitation to stack on the barren world colonization bit. If the Yor could only colonize barren planets, everyone would scoff. The speed limit is a nice touch that makes it an interesting SA choice.

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Nooby here. Where is the detailed AAR? Couldnt find it. Sorry.

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There are two pages. All the detail is in page 1 of 2.

Hydro

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

Ultimately, I suspect that the +30% to Espionage spending is a bug. I'm fairly certain that no one in Stardock would ever wish 'gee, I wish I could spend more than 25% of my economy on my spy network

Nope, that's exactly what it's supposed to do.

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And story wise, I mean [the Iconians] DID create the Yor.

Dark Avatar manual has a different version. As the Iconians served the Arnor, they in turn created a race to serve them. The War broke out and the Dread Lords gifted sentience to the Yor who then turned on their "masters".
Don't have it with me, but it's at the very back of the manual.

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Hi!

> Ultimately, I suspect that the +30% to Espionage spending is a bug. I'm fairly certain
> that no one in Stardock would ever wish 'gee, I wish I could spend more than 25%
> of my economy on my spy network

Nope, that's exactly what it's supposed to do.

Can you please suggest Stardock that this is really a nonsese. IIRC older model DECREASED costs of espionage by stated percent; i.e. at 20% bonus I paid 100BC for 120 BC spent.

Do I have to mention that the new spying model can become prohibititely expensive, when I have to produce the 20th or 40th spy, because I've been attacked with spies from 3 races? The 50% discount for Super Spy would finaly mean something in a prolonged spy war.

BR, Iztok

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